I am afraid TFC and myself rather highjacked the CHP thread on this subject, so have started a proper one.

Will cut and paste as necessary from CHP, where our opposing stances are self-apparent

Bane gets my vote. This countrys too full.

Hows the debate gone so far?.

TFC wrote ..... "i am such a mercanary shitester . ..Voted for Jean - Marie la Penn in French elections ....... which paves the way for another right winger in Nicolas Sarkozy who is not unlike le Pen .....You only neeed look at UK to see how immigration ruins a countries heritage."

CYNIC responds ..... "that's total balderdash! ..... immigration has done nothing but good for both UK and USA and Australia and many other countries including France ..... while there are some who make no contribution to their adopted society, you would be following blind prejudice blindly to deny the beneficial impact made by such immigrant groupings as the Asians, Chinese, Italians, Jews, Poles etc etc.

when a country's economy is suffering, the automatic response is to blame immigrants for stealing jobs or similar, when the truth is all to often that the so-called indigenous population is too proud or too idle to take the jobs etc on offer.

in short, to prosper and grow, countries need the stimulus that new cultures and races bring."


TFC ....... Thats your personal opinion Cynic . And , as such, i respect it .But still utter bollo**s and i strongly disagree. Thats my personel opinion . We are very lucky in that only the suberbs of Paris, Lyons and Marseille have sizeable minorities. France proper,esp the N &S West , would never tolerate it . France is still very tribal and historically divided in itself without adding fuel to the fire. Likewise we will NEVER again see a socialist running the show . They started us on the road to ruination . .l never want to be in a France when no-one speaks the language .lts INSANE !!You ever had the luxury of visiting cities like Bradford or Leeds, Birmingham , Liverpool,or ANy part of East or SE London where no buggere can speak the language ? .Let alone the plethora of smaller towns throughout the ENTIRE UK who jabber away in a language no -one even understands . . Nothing to do with race/creed or whatever like unemployment at all .....lts called Nationalism. France FOR the FRENCH !!!!!!!!! Also immigration is a root cause of exploitation. Juste as UK exploits their cheap labour .


ALDWICKK ..... Massive immigation without proper health & crime checks in a short time span into a small island like the UK , with a health service in crises and inner city schools trying to teach English pupils at the same time as teaching non English speaking ones is total madness.


CYNIC ...... France has always been xenophobic and right wing ..... but don't think we should venture down France's role etc a generation back which i am sorry to say highlighted an underlying national trait.

that UK's health service is a disaster is nothing to do mith immigration ... it is down to political shennanigans and ineptitude .... in fact, without WI immigrants in the 1950s you would have no one doing all those menial jobs (cleaning etc) nor bus conductors etc etc ...... Do I also need to itemise how the Asians, Chinese, Jews etc have benefitted not only the economy of this country but also its cultural richness?

==========

So there you have it ..... plenty here for a lively debate and, i hope, without personal abuse

Have to agree with this from TFC...

" You ever had the luxury of visiting cities like Bradford or Leeds, Birmingham , Liverpool,or ANy part of East or SE London where no buggere can speak the language ? ".

I live in West Yorkshire where immigrants are now 3rd generation but still attend school at 5 without understanding a word of English.

The other kids are held back and not only that but I find I have to pay increasing amounts of council tax year on year for what was section 11 funding (now comes under a different pot)targeted at this area.

Increasingly the asians are now running the drug gangs aswell in this part of the country.

Off goes a air bomb every other two days to signal the next batch of drugs as arrived.

Id go further than letting in skilled workers Id put a ban on any entry here.

You have to live IN AND AMONGSTto truly understand the problems of the now milti cultural Towns and Citys which are effected.

so how would you rate earlier immigrations of African Asians (usually Indian), Jews (I have vested interest!), and say Chinese?

G/F touched upon the REALITY of the situation . And is well qualified as he lives within close proximity to these manipulative , scrounging , drug dealing scum .African/Carribean types make an utter mockery of law and order .Expoliting under numerous nom de plume both your social security and worsen long waiting lists reg. health service ; Furthermore most have sidelines/ connections inthe drugs trade and prostitution as do Asians in W. Yorkshire. ,,,You neeed look no further than the continent of Africa itself to see what types you are letting into your country.-2 million during Blairs premiership.... the twa* ( eg - Rhuanda,Burundi, Sudan, Liberia ,Zimbabwe,Zaire,Zambia ,Somalia, Nigeria ,Angola,Mozambique ,,Tanzania, Ethoipia,and both republic and democratic Congo, to name but a few where human life is cheap, and meaningless , , Observe thier leaders . At best-corrupt,despotic,vicious,ruthless , merciless cretins whose avarice and injustice knows no bounds : and at worst - Bestial, pschopathic,brutal, ,maniac genocides who have no concious ,and whose use of rape and mutilation are used as weapons . i would personally shackle the bastards and after a damn good browning 9mm whipping ,haul the whining maniacs by thier hair before the War Crimes tribunal in the Hague . Many of these types are HERE and NOW ...........lf blacks are so proud of their colour, their roots and origins and heritage why dont they piss off back to these countries who NEED at least people who can read and write ---which is a luxury in Africa. As for Afro Carribeans . EVEN worse ,,,,,,,,,,l'd expel the LOT !!! They dont want to work ,pay bills and even integrate on an equal footing . For they are WORSE racists than you or l !!!!! . You had better believe it NOW before its to late !!!!! AS for their going home to assist in their countrys development -- Why should they want to do that whilst such a high percentage are involved in the madness that constitutes the drugs underworld .And if you cant afford a gun . Then a cup of sulphuric acid will suffice ............These people dont contribute to British society in any manner.. THEY exploit and drain the resources of a small island which i was taught as a young boy in Brive in the 80s that a mere generation ago the English were hard working , lawful, decent open minded folk ..( for the most part }..................How times change .Many of your young are brought down to the level of the scum who surround them and run the streets. The police are terrified of the blacks with their pro drug/gun , anti respect , chauvanistic wierd ways .Even their music takes the view ladies are no more than whores or bitches and its koool to carry a piece .......The wishy washy liberal freaks placate them . l sincerely hope it never happens to you Cynic ; but you may change your opinions if you were domiciled with neighbors of thieving, drug dealers, pimps, gun toting scum on a modern housing estate . ......OR worse - Yardys ................lmmigration ,- unlike that of Victorian and Edwardian England ,which brought hard working Chinese, Jewish , Russian , Poles, and a whole host of different eastern europeons into the UK- is diametrically different now ,,.....................And in my minds eye , l see fires in your cities .......................................................YOU opened the gates, and let the Trojan horse within .........So why blame France for using its army to close their borders on occassion ,and out of the blue, to stop them illegally getting in

what a long ramble ...... i think the following was the only part of the diatribe that may have had some logic, if true .... "These people dont contribute to British society in any manner."

so now you have got that Hitleresque rabble-rousing rant off your chest, would you concede that IF an immigrant or immigrant group (to generalise) makes a cultural and/or financial contribution to his adopted society, then he should be made more than welcome?

To late -Most Asians{ but not all as i am sure an element abide by British law } but esp. Afro Carribeans have made their bed on easy street ,,,,lts engrained in their pyche now .lts too late !!!! ,,,,AlsoHitler hated Jews as they had all the money . l admire the Jews who came to England as were industrious

cynic
It looks like you have given a platform for Neo Nazism the discussion is to racist and nazi for me to participate coming from the far left of politics I will opt out and concentrate on my shares.

well hidden mon brave, but i take that to mean that you concur with what i wrote last ...... you are not strictly right about the reason (scarcely logic!) for Htler's hatred of the Jews, but that is a different matter.

Of the major immigrant groups, many many Asians have made a very positive mark on British society as have, in different ways, the Chinese ..... The Afro-Caribs certainly seem to have a different set of mores and aspirations from the aforementioned, but they have certainly added positively to our cultural richness and in the early/mid 50s were the saviours of our public services (not meant to sound patronising).

Yes, the yardies and their ilk have also imported drugs, extortion etc etc, but that could also be levelled at the Chinese triads who are alive and well, though rather more circumspect in their activities.

The recent flood of economic refugees from Estern Europe, with some very debatable "habits" among them, certainly give cause for concern, but that is surely due to lax immigration controls allowing in opportunistic criminals rather than innate and genetic evil.

The rise of Muslim fundamentalism actually goes back at least as far as 1000 AD and probably earlier, and to tar all Muslims as rabid potential terrorists is preposterous.

Asians, as a group, have strong family bonding, albeit that some parts of that we find alien. They also set great store by education which, if i recollect correctly, includes that of girls as promoted by the Koran ...... All of which is not greatly different from the Jewish ethic.

So, in conclusion (maybe!), no society wants bloodsuckers and crooks but (a) many are home bred and (b) some bad apples are inevitable ...... but that is a far cry from histrionics about France (or Britain) being only for the French (or Brits) and all others should be shipped out pronto.

surely driver, the far left (as you like to term yourself) is not exempt from having views, whether for moderation and acceptance or annihilation and genocide per "your" messrs Stalin and Mao?

Hmmmm.
Random thoughts. I love a good argument.
As per the war thread, there is a bit of muddled thinking. There are 2 debates. The moral and the political. These are very different. The moral debate is about the nature of who we should offer a home to and who we should not. Whether a group has a culture so alien to ours as to appear "wrong". The political debate is a simple economic one. Do we benefit?
Economically, of course we do. But it is the unmeasurable cost of the "black" economy that makes this ripe grounds for an argument. Does the real cost outweigh the visible benefit? I believe it probably does.
Interesting that some should argue the benefits seen in Australia etc., but these countries deny any benefit at all to migrants until after a qualifying period of residency. A route I would urge the UK to follow.
Morally, there is an argument that our culture is being attacked and wrecked, though I think this comes from the weird and wonderful social worker world of PC, rather than from the immigrants themselves.
The Chinese are a great example of a people who have settled without causing massive ripples, as are the jews, but of late the Asian communities and Afro-Carribean communities appear to be asking for / granted a disproportionate voice.
The more our way of life is "adjusted" to make sure that these groups are not alienated, the more the general population will revile them and react against them with what appear to be far right motives. These are not evil people with dodgy motives, they are ordinary middle-englanders who want their country as it was in days gone by.
Alan

there is and always has been a tendency to view the past through rose coloured specs, whereas the reality was almost invariably much nastier than we would like to think.

skin colour is easily identifiable, so anyone (or group) who is non-white who challenges our set ideas or mores becomes an easy target for fear = hate.

similar applies or has applied to any group that keeps itself to itself, especially as many will speak in tongues we do not understand ..... incidentally, that was the reason behind the forming of rhyming slang and many other non-standard "dialects" - i.e. to maintain exclusivity or to identify an accepted member of "that gang".

the jews, chinese, asians, afro-caribs etc etc have all initially been ghetto-ised, either willingly - i.e. wanting the comfort of their own "tribe" - or unwillingly - i.e. the "natives" wanting the aliens excluded.

it takes at least 2/3 generations for these barriers to be broken down, though there is a counter-argument that this leads to a loss of historic and cultural heritage and strength.

as third generation English-Ashkenazi (both sets of grandparents came from Poland), I actually feel somewhat somewhat uncomfortable in heavily Jewish accented surroundings ..... my children (and I) went to "normal" schools and i have rejected the approaches of my local rabbi, lovely guy though he is ..... my children all have goyim (non-jewish!) girl/boyfriends ... but for all that, they still know they are Jewish and i hope i would never deny that myself.

sorry for that ramble, but i guess it merely underlines that on balance i think immigration, albeit with it some sensible and necessary controls, is a great bonus to any nation.

i also retain an awareness that racism in its most rabid and destructive forms lies just beneath the surface of all societies.

Just came across this interesting thread with its diversity of views some of which are barely legal.It seems to me that immigration over the years has added immensely to our country in many ways ,the strength of the economy, cultural enrichment, education , healthcare ,finance & banking ,invention,science and in just about any field you care to think about.

However several points are worthy of mention as to why we are even having this debate now :

1.The sheer scale of the current (last 10 years?) wave of immigration seems to surpass any of the earlier periods of mass immigration and the numbers themselves are creating huge problems in the localised areas in which the immigration is concentrated, shortages of housing ,school places, and medical facilities are resulting in an understandable build up of resentment among the indiginous population.

2. In the past the immigrants who came were possessed of a strong work ethic often coupled with entreprenuerial flair.They also came here as genuine refugees fleeing Hitler ,Idi Amin etc. or at the express invitation of our country to fill the many jobs which for interesting reasons were available and unfillable at the time.A significant minority of the present immigrants are here not by invitation nor indeed are they fleeing any particular tyrant but are merely economic migrants who call themselves asylum seekers.Many of these are indeed the dregs and criminals of their own societies,why should we expect any different when they get here?

3. The weakness of our own system both judicial and welfare provides a unique situation which people like this can exploit to their own ends.
the current mess will only be resolved when these weaknesses are corrected.
I suggest withdrawing from the European Human Rights Act maybe a good start.

When we find a way of controlling both the number and quality of person we allow here and when we find the strength to deal with the criminal element which causes a disproportionate amount of problems and when we can do all this without being accused of racism,only then will we get any where.

There is no logic to indiscriminate immigration into the UK, the Government should only allow immigration that we need, skilled or non skilled. It seems in recent years immigration has been allowed without any thought to the infrastucture the overcrowding or environmental impact on our small country.

In recent years I have found the South East of England becoming an unbearable over populated place to work and live. Hence that's why I now live in South West France.

It's interesting the amount of times that Various Europeans that I meet seem alway's to ask about the madness that's happening in the UK. They seem just as concerned as the Brits, and even more concerned about the same situation happening in their country.

French Connection. Interesting to see that you lived near Brive (Two good golf courses), I'm about 50 Minutes from you towards Perigueux. C'est tres chaud aujourdhui.

Immigration as enriched our Society?...... LOL, certainly not mine, I dont even get the vote now as its not worth the trouble turning up as the big majority in my ward are muslims and vote for the muslim labour guy, not because they believe in his politics but because they believe in his religion....... its a farce. (and I normally vote labour)

Not only that but I have lost the benefits of CHOICE.

Once where there was a Butchers shop a fish and chip shop a deli and bread shop stand asian takeaways and a asian grocery store, but theres no bacon ham or british type foods sold.

What was my local bookmakers is now an asian womens wear shop.

Some say move out of the district, but why should I. My familys been here for over 80 odd years.

I have nothing against other races as long as they integrate into the traditional British life (whats left of it) but most incomers seem hell bent on trying to get us to change to their cultures and customs.

Well worth reading this from Rose George the award winning author who as no race/political agenda.......

Dewsbury diary, part 2

In my ventures around town, I end up on a bench near Percy Jubbs fish stall in Dewsbury Market, marvelling at the bustle. The market is still famous enough to be a destination for coach trips. A trader tells me there are 350 stalls on Wednesdays and Saturdays, and a waiting list for spaces. The Hayes family tripe stall still operates as it has done for a hundred years, though now they have a fridge, when once the cows stomach linings and heels already cooked, just add vinegar were brought in barrels packed with ice. The people at the stall are either gaping with disgust or buying the stuff. Toffee Smiths sweet stall is busy, as is the man who sells biscuits singly, if you want, out of big boxes. But there are more Asian stalls than there used to be and more Asians shopping. Dewsburys population is now more than 30 per cent Asian, but during Ramadan, a trader tells me, takings drop by more than that.

I have lunch with a local newspaperman in the West Riding, part of Dewsbury Station and the best pub in the country. Dewsbury is a mess, he says. He is not optimistic about its future. I ask him whats wrong with it. I say it seems successful, as societies go, and particularly one with two different peoples trying to share the same town. He shakes his head. Whats wrong with Dewsbury? Race, political correctness, drugs. Hes got more than a hundred members of his family here. Hes well known, respected. But now he wants to leave.

The next day, over another pint, a local pharmacist says much the same thing. There is a veneer of culture here, he says, But underneath theres criminality. A lot of it. I suppose I could have guessed that. My parents house has been burgled with increasing frequency. Recently, theyve been finding used syringes in the garden. When I left Dewsbury, there was virtually no heroin. Now, there is as much as you need, and more. Dewsbury has more addicts than Huddersfield, and they are younger. A former heroin user says that 12-year-olds are on it now, and that even he finds that shocking.

The pharmacist supplies addicts with methadone, and he has seen their numbers increase. When the Taliban released their stockpiles in the early 1990s, thats when it started. Now, its 10 a bag. The kids who used to get blotto on alcohol now dont bother its cheaper to be on heroin. In Ravensthorpe, half a mile from Dewsbury, J., who runs a drop-in centre for addicts and their parents, is bringing up her grandchildren, because her son and daughter are both addicts. In the Victorian town hall one day, I go to the launch of the Luke & Marcus Trust, set up by two white middle-class women whose sons overdosed. A white-collar worker tells me her niece buys her two sons a bag each a day, rather than have them stealing to get it.

Still, prices are now so low that robberies have decreased. J.s son, D., turns up and talks freely about his habit: hes on methadone and hoping to come off it soon. He tells me that all those fireworks going off in all months and at all times of day, which I attributed to an odd fetish for daylight fireworks, signify that a shipment of heroin has arrived. He says that ten years ago, at the same time as the bedding industry kicked off, the heroin would arrive with cotton fibres embedded in it. I hear this rumour from plenty of non-drug-users, too. He says hes not surprised my parents find syringes in their garden, because three of the biggest dealers live a couple of streets away. They are organised, he says, and competitive. They have laminated calling cards. One pair call themselves William and Harry. I am a bit dazed by this. Are those their real names? No, D. says. Theyre Asian, arent they? Nearly all of them are.

I ask one of the Asian councillors about it. Young people in our community are involved in this terrible business, he says, uncomfortably. We have a collective responsibility to be open about it. I ask the pharmacist about it. I did a straw poll of my clients. Out of forty, only one didnt have a dealer who was Asian. I ask the chief of police about it. Absolutely not, he says. Dealers are all sorts. You are totally, totally wrong. He frowns. Youre coming at this from the race angle, arent you? He warns me not to ruin months, years, of careful community cohesion-building. He doesnt say it, but I know that saying such things also plays into the hands of the BNP, who enjoy scaremongering about Asian narco-terrorists. (Nick Griffin said on his Heckmondwike trip that Asian womens bones were crumbling under their burqas for lack of sunlight.)

You think Im racist, dont you? D. says, after telling me about young Asian lads he knows who drive Lexuses, but who have no obvious jobs. I can see youre thinking that. But its not about racism. I used to go on Rock against Racism marches. My best friend is an Asian lad called Bashir. Its not the race, its this generation. They are full of hate. Now when I go to my doctors in Savile Town I get called a white bastard.

J. has lived in Ravensthorpe for 33 years. We never had any problems. We lived quite happily side by side. Its not the community, its this generation. They call you goura white person. I love it here, she says. I did love it here. She says council funding is allotted unfairly. She says indigenous whites feel neglected, and if they complain, they get called racist. They spent millions on this area, but on one street of privately-owned houses. Not a single English-owned house.

Such resentment may be unfounded, but its corrosive. Councillor Khizar Iqbal prides himself on not ignoring it, and on speaking publicly about the councils culture of political correctness. One perception, Iqbal says, is that there is an unfair distribution of funding. That is not a fact. The council doesnt spend millions on Asian estates and nothing on white ones. But it is too busy promoting black and Asian issues. We need that, but they also have a responsibility not to encourage these negative perceptions.

In another council meeting, when regeneration money was voted for an overwhelmingly Asian estate, Iqbal said it created a damaging impression. I was called a racist! he laughs. But they applauded me. He is tired, he says, of the council reinforcing prejudices, for example, that Savile Town is dole-dependent. We have doctors, businessmen, professionals. There are millionaires living here! He wants everyone black, Asian, white, whatever to be dealt with on merit. Things changed when the council started interfering, the Dewsbury Reporters Margaret Watson says. Positive discrimination. People say Asians are the most deprived and all that but then theres all this positive discrimination. This, she thinks, is the reason for most of those 5066 BNP votes. You would not believe who voted BNP. People youd never expect. They are so sick of everything. It was a protest vote. There were bigots in those five thousand, says the newspaperman, but most of it was giving two fingers to Kirklees Council, to Labour, to everything. Still, I think, there must be better ways to stick it to the establishment than voting for Holocaust-deniers. Even if it means the Liberal Democrats.

Its all getting a bit dispiriting. I go for lunch at a large primary school, where the ethnicity factor, as Kirklees Council calls it, is 87 per cent. I get cheese quiche, something called tutti-frutti sponge pudding, and an education. People think a high ethnicity factor means a lot of problems, the headteacher says. There are problems children who have to struggle to learn English while theyre learning in English, seven-year-olds who are their parents translators but less than youd think. The headteachers previous school was a large inner-city one. I was told to fuck off on my first day. By the parents. Here, Ive never heard that. Its the first place Ive worked where parents ask me how I am, and actually want to know. He gives me a tour of the school, to prove that its a quiet, hardworking place. It is. I lose count of the bilingual support workers, mentors and learning assistants.

After the bombings, the Asian parents were shocked, the head teacher says. But he thought things had settled down, until three sets of white parents said they were moving their children elsewhere. He was surprised: the school has had good inspections, is well-rated and harmonious. There are no children sitting in assembly with their hands over their ears, as happens elsewhere. No one has chosen to exclude their children from assembly or RE lessons. Christmas is celebrated though Jesus is referred to as a prophet, not the son of God and so is Ramadan. Still, the three families turned up, somewhat embarrassed, and said their kids were transferring to St Paulinus, the local Catholic school. J. told me that her 14-strong family are all Protestants except her youngest. Shes Catholic, J. says, as the girl saunters past. So she can go to St Paulinus.

It is perhaps ironic that Dewsburys historic icon is now used as a way to escape the towns modern reality. I escape again too, in the end, despite a brief fantasy of buying a flat on the site of my Dads mill. The thought of living in the weaving shed, or in the rooms where I spent a summer folding scarves is compelling. But only for a moment.


This diary appeared in the London Review of Books. Copyright Rose George 2005.

16/11/2005

GF,
Like you, I live close to Dewsbury, on the outskirts of leeds.
I can testify to the above, very interesting, article and its tale of asian ghettos.
Parts of Dewsbury and Bradford are a hell hole. At my previous home, the local postmaster was a Pakistani Muslim and he lived in dewsbury. We would discuss our favourite eating houses, as Bradford has a fine tradition of excellent curry houses. For many of my favourites he would shrug and say he could never visit them as they were in the wrong part of Dewsbury or Bradford.
When I enquired why it turned out that he was the wrong kind of Asian or wrong kind of Muslim for that area and that if he were seen there after dark he would be lucky to escape with his life. His clothing and beard gave him away.
Apparantly this is quite a frequent occurance, but little reported to police. We have our own family ways of dealing with this he told me.
My thought is that this is perhaps why Asian communities are ghetto-ised.
Certainly the Jewish areas of Leeds could never be described as a Ghetto, and much the same could be said for the Chinese quarters. The West Indian areas were, about 25 years ago, but no longer.
Caste / race / religion above community has absolutely no place in this country and where it exists, it is propounded more by the immigrant population than by the indiginous one.
Just my opinion.
Alan

lots and lots to which i shall try to respond later, and certainly when i have the time ..... much with which i take issue, though some valid points too .... at least just calm observation instead of rabid rabble-rousing

Just to add a few issues regarding the English way of life, such as forced marriages and Fathers killing their daughters for bringing dishonour to the family.

Women treated as 2nd class citizens, were men can have affairs but not women

ALDWICKK - the tone of your post implies that you believe your statement applies (almost) exclusively to the Muslim population ...... you could not be more wrong.

arranged marriages are much more common throughout all society than you care to think, and always have been ...... and of course no one can condone murder for perceived dishonour, but that i think is pretty rare even among the world's Muslim community; in the UK it is headline stuff when it happens, and far far rarer than other murders perpetrated for no apparent reason at all.

similarly, the view with regard to affairs or similar has always been so, though that differential is perhaps slowly and quite rightly (imo) being eroded.

Hi Alan,

I actually live in and was born in a district of Huddersfield but all the things you mention as does Rose George stand up here.

Strange but I liken the Asian community now as to what the West Indian community was 10 to 15 years ago. The afro carribeans seem to have moved on a great deal and seem to have lifted that big chip off their shoulders.

In part I believe its due to a lot of young lads getting chances with the Big football teams and the exposure it gets on TV and in the media. I think they realise that they do have chances in modern Britain and arent hell bent on pushing their culture on us.

ALAN - your Asian postmaster's experience is not confined to this country or his religion/race ...... there are certainly areas in Israel where the ultra-orthodox Hasidim will stone outsiders, even if they are fellow Jews.

I also find your comment re former no-go WI areas .... Are you not therfore admitting that this community has and has been permitted to integrate?

I would also strongly contend that it is the indigenous population who have the obligation and the ability to foster harmony and tolerance ..... however, it is a sad fact of life that the majority of the population is so bigotted and prejudiced and uneducated that anything that falls outside its comfort zone is automatically regarded and treated as alien.

' the majority of the population is so bigotted and prejudiced and uneducated that anything that falls outside its comfort zone is automatically regarded and treated as alien. '

Can you back up that statement with facts. If it was true then the BNP would be the main opposition party.

GOLDFINGER -as succinctly as i can, which i know will leave much unsaid .....

you wrote - "I have nothing against other races as long as they integrate into the traditional British life (whats left of it) but most incomers seem hell bent on trying to get us to change to their cultures and customs."

I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still.


Heroin and general drug abuse - this is not a modern let alone sudden phenomenon ..... no one is forced to turn to drugs; it is a choice ..... to blame the increase in usage on a certain sector of the community cannot be justified, for if there was no demand there would be no sale ...... if certain areas of the country have more Asian dealers than white, then that is a reflection of the social mix in that area, just as around here and in many other parts of the country, the dealers are white (Christians!), or in the various Chinese enclaves they are Chinese etc etc.

your interesting article says - "Its the first place Ive worked where parents ask me how I am, and actually want to know. He gives me a tour of the school, to prove that its a quiet, hardworking place. It is. I lose count of the bilingual support workers, mentors and learning assistants."

I write - is that not proof that at least some communities are doing their very best to integrate? ..... you can't have it both ways!

No Cynic,
It is not the responsibility of the indiginous population. It is firmly the responsibilty of the migrants. As we often hear at work, FIFO.
They have come here, I presume, because the conditions are more satisfactory. Please leave them as such. We have a wonderful culture and heritage, of tolerance and success. Of teaching and welcoming. Of offering opportunity to all and prejudice to none.
Uneducated does not wash. I am virtually uneducated, and happy to admit such. I am also very tired of the instant reply of bigot, idiot or racist when I express concerns over our towns and cities, and the areas where the indigenous population live as refugees in their own country. These areas exist and are caused by the nonsense approach of the soft handed liberals who foisted decades of statute on us making any reference to creed, colour or religion an offence.
Multi-culturalism does not, and never will work. We must acceept and respect those differences, but also conclude that any nation must have an over riding identity and a dominant culture, for if it does not, then it is not a nation at all, for it has no common interest outside of money. It is a loose collection of people chasing more for less.
if that opinion makes me an uneducated bigot, then I am happy to wear that badge as one of honour.
alan

Multi-culturalism does not, and never will work.

That is an untenable statement ...... The population of GB is multi-cultural by definition and has been for the last 1000 years and more! ...... are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Chinese, Asians, WIs, Jews etc still deemed to be "aliens" in your eyes? ...... you seem to be saying as much

Just a few points to move this discussion on a bit.
Firstly it would seem a few people here are sitting in foreign countries as immigrants, yet pumping their gums about immigration at home. No offense intended, but double standards???
Secondly, the tendancy for immigrants to stick within their own communities is natural, as it provides security for themselves in a strange environment. The british abroad are no exception & in many areas the british ex-pat community are the worst in adhering to their own customs & way of life, shunning the ways of 'foreigners'.
One last point I would make is that immigrants in this country fill many of the jobs which should be filled by our own indigenous population. But, surprise, surprise, it has been found that the younger immigrants work harder & for less money than our own british counterparts.
I agree that the U.K. gangs are of predominately Asian or Afro-Caribbean origin, but shame on our own system which allows them to operate without check. But, France is the same with huge North African immigration & subsequent ghettos & gang wars. Germany has it's Turkish immigrants, Italy the constant influx from the Balkans etc etc. However, the 'scum' element is a tiny minority, thankfully.
All imo of course, but lets not blame the jews for everything! They seem to be running Gibraltar without any problems.

thanks Harry, though it has often been said that the Jews are a persecuted race because they damn well deserve to be and would not know what to do with themselves or their humour, if they were not!

I should actually have mentioned in my own ramblings that an open-door policy for immigration is a recipe for disaster

Truly scholarly postings from Alan6 and G/F, Spitfire and Aldwick . . All based on cold hard facts and their OWN personnel expieriences ; and as such " straight from the horses mouth " . NOT mere theorizing !! ...Heres a little gem for you all . Recently a Lancashire town called Blackburn was ordered by Blairs central govt to house 400 Armenians .The local coucil and city planners were utterly horrrified as housing units, healthcare ,and adequate ammenities simply did not exist to serve their needs .. BUT !!!! The most vociferous and violent opposition to the Armenians came from uppity racist Pakistani residents/immigrants who claimed this area was there " patch " to do as they so wished ...EG Sell drugges , stimulate prostitution and impose their idiosyncracies on the indigineous population . ln addition they weakly claimed their women folk were not safe from Armenian men !! Touche' A tad ironic considering this tiny island has no room for such types, , and the manner in which they percieved the influx of Armenians is much the same as we view them !!! Have they no shame ???...They have some nerve . Their effing " patch " indeed ..Their "patch" is usually inntermitent soujourns in Armly gaol in LEEDS and with good reason , .They are a potential "time bomb" and the clock is ticking . ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................lncidentally Cynic this is 2007 and not the post war 1950's when the UK was economically on its knees, manpower was short ,and the govt was too busy paying back the usa for war debt from the Marshall plan to bother itself with the future ramifications of mass immigration . ....................................Driver ....The Left are finished,/ And anyway you in the UK havent even got a left of centre party ... Thankfully. Even liberal Holland has lurched to th`e right after a zealot from the middle east murdered a prominent journalist . .Even countries like the Ukraine , Poland , Belarus, Latvia.Lithuania , Slovakia,The Czech republic, and a host of Eastern Europeons were glad to thow off the shackles of the Left ..........Orwel put that leftish hoary fable to bed ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ ..

TFC .... would be interested to hear your (brief!) views on my post 26 which could equally apply to France

Finally the police cannot control many "no go" areas within the UK . So called "ZERO" tolerance" areas to boot . lmmigrants merely scoff and laugh at their impotence ......But the army could ably control our streets without a problem Bring them into the equation and u shall see a change overnight ,,,,

now try a sensible comment please!

Cynic , quit while your behind, your views have been blown out of the water.

No cynic. The population of the UK has not been multicultural for 1000 years.
Not a single mass migration, ever, has been of more than 1% of the indiginous population, until the 1950's.
Saxons, Romans, Normans, Jews, Moors, Poles, free French between them add up to less than 5%! Hardly multi-cultural.
Alien?? Not based on creed or colour or religion or how long they have inhabited a particular patch of earth. However by refusing to fit in with the accepted ways of the majority of the community, they alienate themselves. We all do. By how we dress, behave and live. By wearing hoodies, berber, gay pride T-shirts, burkhas, football kits or skullcaps we choose to alienate ourselves from mainstream society by making a statement of our differences. Choosing the group to which we belong.
this is totally acceptable and should be no cause for comment from anyone. Up until the point where society is forced into making changes, against the wishes of the majority, to allow for these groups.
I am opposed to racism, very strongly, but I am opposed equally strongly to positive discrimination, the brainchild of the liberal, educated elite. All discrimination is negative for someone.
There are about 168 countries of the world and there ways are all different. Their values and aspirations are never the same. Please find one that suits your lifestyle, and if that is the UK, then live here with my open armed invite and I will defend your right to do so with my last breath. If however, your intention is to benefit from our heritage while trying to change our cultural values then make your decision. Which do you value more. The enormous benefits of the UK citizenship or the doctrines of your own race / religion. Where these clash either moderate your values to those of the UK or give up the benefits of being here to satisfy your moral soul and move to a country who shares your ideals.
I do not consider that unreasonable and I do not intend it to sound like I am advocating a mass exodus of Dewsbury, Nottingham and leicester to Islamabad, or Golders Green and Alwoodly to Israel, or Birmingham to Jamaica. I am merely asking everyone of every colour to either improve the place or at least leave it as you find it, for the next generation.
Alan

Slightly off topic, but a bit of humour

Very good post, Allan.

Cynic lt does not apply to France iin any shape or form . Only 3 cities --Paris, Lyons and Marseille have immigration worthy of note .l could drive from Bordeaux to Rennes to La Rochelle and onto Brest and not set eyes on immigrants .....................Good huh ?

And one for religion as well

d'accord Alan .......once again an excellent posting . ,,,Dentist for me now ,,,,,,,,,shit it would be my luck to have a blackie who reads this very thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and payback lol,,lol Only teasing ,,,,,,,a'bientot @+ J ...

Cynic re to your post 24.......

you said....

"I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still."ENDS

You suggest that communities evolve over time and yes I couldnt agree more with you here on this point. The once local baker now lives in Crete I believe he as a boat for hire business, the once local butcher runs a bar in Benidorm and the once local bookie also runs a bar but its in Fuingerola.

Im left with little or no choice as I wish to stay put. This is hapenning more and more by the day, the indiginous population leaving and getting the 'hell out' and the immigrants moving in.

Were told house prices are going up all over the country, the truth is thats not correct. My house recently valued is worth just about what its worth was back in 1994. I dont benefit like some areas of the country and this is where I believe you are off track with your side of the debate.

It depends on where you live as to wether, immigration as benefited this country.

Goldgfinger i like you live in W.Yorks WF. and share an empathy in many of your views. Born in the very early sixties i've seen this area change beyond recognition, sadly for the worse in my view . Whils't not racist or bigoted i believe this goverment has let us down and i am opened minded on my vote in the next local elections including the BNP.

Yep BD, you actually know where Im coming from rather than the politicians or 'do gooders' who have no practical day to day experience of the problems facing some of our inner cities.

On a lighter note GF. if, when i hit the jackpot with KMR. i'm out of this shithole!.

We could start a Yorkshire club on here.
3 members already, of similar minded views!!
Any more takers???
Alan ;-)

have not gone into hiding or even been forcefully repatriated and some of you would seem to wish ...... have been having a quiet lunch with a good pal of mine (soul* - he lives in Canford Cliffs, so a close neighbour of yours).

will park the car and then respond ....... by and large, this has been a sensibly if quite fiercely debated thread ..... thank you all, for it could have become stupidly abusive.

To illustrate the positive side of immigration.Since 1989 in excess of 15,,000 English familys have settled in the French provinces of Bretagne, Poitou and Anjou . And why ? Because all 3 regions suffered from depopulation due to the native French moving to the cities and abroad ( Comme moi -pour l'argent )........Most simply love it as property is comparitevely cheap ,they , and more importantly , their children are safe at ALL times .lt is not uncommon to see kids strolling home from music lessons at ten at night in the dark ..CHILDREN ARE SAFE !!! ...When you ask these English if they would ever return to the UK they look at you as if you are demented .They learn the language and positively thrive ...Unlike the streets of the UK where even well heeled areas suffer at the hands of immigrants who see generousity and decency as a weakness and utterly exploit it . As for inner cities they are responsible for the majority of bestial crime such as rape and aww the mind boggles ..l suggest we give them ONE chance. But once they commit a indictable offence they are gone on the first flight to an unhabited island where they can all commit as many offences to their hearts delight,,,,,,And thats being both charitable and kind....@+ J PS No fillings or need for any treatment at dentist !! . As always ...! ........................................

ALAN - do you expect, or is it even reasonable to expect a new immigrant to assimilate in their entirety the mores of his chosen destination from Day 1? ..... almost a rhetorical question.

my own view , as stated earlier, is that open-door immigration is a recipe for disaster as at the very least there will be "indigestion" as has clearly happened in some locations ...... similarly, positive discrimination and other PC dictats are arguably as destructive as the "evils" they are meant to cure.

i like what would appear to be the Australian system of allowing immigrant entry based on a point system.

however, to make the sweepng statement that swathes to all immigrants come to UK purely to benefit from the NHS ands similar is a nonsense ..... indeed there are an awful lot of so-called indigenous residents who play (abuse) the system for all it's worth.

and so far, not even Alan has answered the question I asked in post 26 ..... "are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Chinese, Asians, WIs, Jews etc still deemed to be "aliens"? ...... if the answer is "of course not", then i would posit that the 1st generation did not "fit in" from Day 1 either, so should they never have been allowed into the country?

Personally Cynic i couldnt give a monkeys if they are 27th generation. They are ALL the same to me.ln saying that i dont include either Chinese or Jews among your list of undesireables . For the most part they are hard working industrious peoples who keep troubles " in house" without posing a threat to the community . lncidentally all Chinese are triad ; but they dont extort the indigenous population as do blackies and Pakistanis ...As much as he maybe currently maligned -.....History will prove Enoch Powell right ........................................................................

does that mean you think they are all aliens and should be forcibly repatriated..... or failing that, exterminated in gas ovens or similar?

can i phone a friend on that one or go 50/50 or even ask the audience ...hehe .................l REPEAT ..Once they commit an indictable offence within the UK they are repatriated without appeal .......................ls that so unreasonable in your eyes . Commit a crime in Pakistan and you will know about it brother ,,,

No sweeping statements from me. I use the term benefits in its broadest sense. Be it the NHS, or the very lax legal system, or the high standard of living.
I replied to your alien question also.
Alien refers not to someones ethnic origin, but to their disposition to their environment. It is, therfore, of their own making, not the environments.
Much of the 1st generation did fit in very well. The current situation is out of control and that is why they do not fit as comfortably.
As for fitting in from day one, I suggest you try to live in a muslim state. You either fit in, obey their customs and show respect to your hosts religions, or you get the first prize of a ride in a police car and a free one way air ticket to anywhere at all. They do not care where.
However if you respect their wishes they are the most generous and warm hearted bunch you could ever meet, which is why their countries are full of immigrants, but without the slightest problem and with little or no damage to their culture.
If we did the same we would be branded racist and a bunch of thugs, but it works and leads to some countries having a 90% migrant population, with none of the problems we associate with migrant communities.
Alan

i wish that were the case, and i previously thought that citizenship and asylum could be withdrawn ...... however, the case of Abu Hamza indicates that is not so ..... the law, possibly or even probably as foisted upon us by Brussels, is thus shown to be a total ass

Here- Here ! Alan ! A well thought out objective posting and executed with the elegance one associates with Alans posts. Which is NOT to say Cynics posts are written any the less elegantly but i simply strongly disagree with him l

hmm! try working in Saudi or even UAE and see what the conditions can be like.

as for fitting in from day 1, few immigrants do or are even able to ..... hence the immigrant enclaves of East London (the ethnic majority changes with time) or Liverpool, or the various Chinatowns, or Brixton etc.

one could just about argue that they do not impinge on broader society, though they must de facto disrupt the immediate locale (Dewsbury, would seem an example!) ..... however, to say that these immigrants assimilate or are assimilated from Day 1 or even quickly would be more than a stretching a point

actually, we are rather straying from the initial question posed in the header.

I worked in France for quite a while, albeit a few years ago, in Paris, Bordeaux, Marseillan & Collioure. The overwhelming opinion of the resident french population (that is the indigenous white/europeans) that all immigrants, regardless of origin, were diluting the traditional way of life in France, to the detriment of the country as a whole. France for the french was the opinion (even though they also wanted to hold on to the colonies which they still have!).
I find it amazing that a few here are quite happy to colonise other countries, forming their own little enclaves, whilst moaning about the influx of exactly the same kind of people to the U.K.
Also, for those people who chose to emmigrate to the Costa Del Crime, good riddance I say. A little british hell to spoil beautiful spanish countyside.

Yep. Worked there Cynic.
Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Oman, RAK, Kuwait, Bahrain and more. Ringside seat for the 911 response and all that.
I know exactly what the conditions are like. I had a friend arrested in RAK for chewing gum. Not that this is against the law, but during Ramadan the police and magistrates found it offensive to their religion.
appeal??? Not a chance.
I joined a darts team where there was an Egyptian and a Bengali who both worked for the same department of government doing the same job. The Egyptian (Basil) was paid 8 times the salary received by the Bengali!! Racist? Absolutely. Against the law?? No way.
I could give many more examples of how the indiginous were treat much better than the immigrants in UAE, but I would bore you. The point is, you accepted it for what it was. You did not bang on the door of Sheik Zayeds palace demanding fair treatment and Sundays off to practice your religion.
In essence, it was the worst racism I have ever seen, it was completely legal and in the open yet the country had only a 10% indiginous population and almost no racial problems or tensions. Strange.
Alan

personally, would rather live in a faulty democracy than even under a benevolent dictatorship, whose benevolence could be withdrawn at a moment's notice.

and to return to the original question ..... yes, in my not at all humble opinion, immigration has an overall beneficial influence on the host nation, notwithstanding the small number of bad apples that will inevitably be included in the mix.

though the UK's virtual open-door policy currently in operation is a disaster (an overstatement), in the fullness of time, which i too hope will not be too far away, some sort of common sense and generally acceptable policy will be implemented..... no doubt the the uber-liberals will jump up and down in horror and the mindlessly prejudiced will rail that it is still far too open, but one can live in hope that the wishes of the thinking majority will prevail.

Al
retv

Now we have someone saying that all British people who emmigrate to Spain are gangsters or Chav's.

Harrycat,

There is a big difference between the British retiring abroad and the asylum seekers & economic migrants in this country

well it wasn't christened the Costa del Crime for nothing ... lol!

' J '

How is that English Rose Lottie, these days ? ....... LOL Ha, Ha,

was rather wondering when you would bring that little gem up ? LOL Seriously. SO sssssssssssh or you will blow my argument out of the sky ,Now play the white man .......@+ J ....Did u see the Utd match ? Enjoyed it (except the result). But rather be in Milans position in returning the san siro . That Carrick is useless.What Fergie saw in him i dont know .......

Really, aldwickk? So you would be quite happy to see a large number of elderly immigrants from all of the british colonies retiring to the U.K., contributing nothing to our economy in the way of taxes, but burdening the health service yet further with the ailments which are normal with the onset of old age??? Which is exactly what the british are doing in other countries, except for one detail. Instead of buying health insurance abroad & contributing to their economies, they are returning to the U.K. for free treatment!
Also, I did not say that all people who emmigrate to Spain are gangsters (though I have a feeling you know that & are just stirring things up :o)). Someone earlier said that local tradesmen in his area are packing up & going abroad to Benidorm & Fuengirola. Of all the beautiful, cheap & friendly places to emmigrate to on the planet, who in their right mind would pick the Costa Brava? Answer: Those people who want to go & live in the sun, but predominately who want to live in an english community.

O/T

who gives as shite about Carrick when you have Ronnie and Runney up front.

The big give away was the last 20 minutes.

Both Scholes and Runney had run themselves into the ground and looked poor on the night.

All, of a sudden the Italians over ageing lungs and legs went.

It was a sure give away.

Both Runney and Scholes dominated.

Next time.... the Italians will need more puff in defence, I dont believe they have.

M UTD versus ..............

Dont want to upset anyone, well bar the Italians, Kaka (fine player) and all.

Looks like an all English Final on the cards.

V Liverpool ......G/f,,,,,,,, i dont disagree that both Ronaldo and Rooney are rare talents . My point is what on earth is Fergie doing playing such dross as Carrick in the same side /... cant disagree Milan legs went in the last 20 mins or so ,,Similar to the final of two years ago . Seedorf must be about 35 now ,,,but have they never heard of subs injecting some vigour back into midfield. ........................

Good point TFC but the subs are even older than the lads on the park.

Itl be tough for UTD away though.

I expect them to just slither through, the great Italian defenders of the last decade wont give up without a fight and UTD need to stop silly goals like the second one.

Having said that RENALDO does really rule the World at the moment, but hes still a long way off the great late Bestie and thats a fact.

Just thought.

Although I mentioned this was O/T its not really.

Have the great imported footballers like Henry, Renaldo and that big fat lad at Chelsea (the forward) enriched our lifes etc, etc.?????????.

Come on Cynic first one for you in the morning and Ive given you a great opening here, just like a Ballack through ball (when hes not injured or shagging)???.

Harrycat,

You were talking about Brit's retiring to Spain,
The Brit's who retire to Spain have paid into the NHS via 40 years of N I contributions and are more entiteled then anybody else for free treatment

Spot on aldwickk.

If thats correct i'm about to defect to the murky underworld of the costa's, Where my kids will be donned in burburries finest.

Although the costa del crime would not be my choice of retirement the English pats have probably also contributed more to the Spanish coffers than the indigenous population .From turning scrubland into beautiful villas thearby stimulating the entire building industry from bricklayers, joiners, plumbers to surveyors and architects Also pumping money into the local eateries/ bars and entertainment sector .Plus the retail sector and provision of jobs for locals - the list is endless And thats merely the tip of the iceburg ....Basically responsible for dragging Spain into the 21st century ,,,,,,,,and Spain is grateful ,,,,,,,,,,And as aldwick points out this is after 40 years of restrictive progressive taxation in the UK ...................Without them it would be no more than a banana republic growing oranges and sugar beet for the rest of Europe ....Ever been to Barcalona ?? Try your very best to avoid it ./,,,...lts a shithole with more junkies and thieves per square metre than anywhere in Europe....Rather like Bradford, Leeds and Liverpool and London ---unfortunately ....@+ J

GF. check out KMR. I know your into them.

up 3.5 last time i looked ...But who isnt into them >? lol

I sold out @49.08

we are beggining to think alike R .....im looking to sell also .....jump back in on retracement

So, FC, the brits on the Costa Brava "have turned scrubland into beautiful villas "(Yeah right!), have "dragged Spain in to the 21st century" otherwise "it would be a banana republic growing oranges & sugarbeet" & "Barcelona is a shithole".?
I bet you're one of those guys who wish the good ol' days of the British Empire were back. Sadly now, instead of owning two thirds of the globe, we now piss off two thirds of the world (including Spain) with our poor attitudes, poor manners & feeble achievments.
And for all you guys who keep comparing modern imported footballers with good british talent, the only past brits you have mentioned are dead!!! Come on guys, move with the times.

Harrycat,

I wouldn't say your attitude is anything to shout about.

What are these feeble achievments ?

Why are you still living here, you don't seem to have a good word to say about the people or the country.

this all seems to have gone totally off subject, but no matter ...... footie? .... no comment .... i don't follow it but would have enjoyed last night's match had i been around ...... Spain? ..... forget the slanging between you guys .... a very interesting article in today's Telegraph about the collapse of the Spanish housing market, and not just jerry-built structres either! ... well worth the read

The difference is, aldwickk, I am still here trying to help put things right & not jumping ship when things get a little bit difficult.
I am a white indigenous brit, but I find that many of my countrymen behave badly at home & abroad, & also live with the memory of past achievments (1966 World Cup etc etc) instead of moving forward with the times.
Feeble achievments: F1 All british drivers underperforming (Lewis Hamilton to prove himself); Cricket World Cup underperformed; Last footy World cup, well we didn't win that either; Olypics, Moto GP, Golf majors, Tennis etc etc.
Of course, Britain does excel at other things which get less publicity, but it's the high profile sport which we so desperately want to be good at.
Just another thought - It's interesting to note, on the subject of immigrants, how many british boxers, past & present have come from ethnic minority groups; Where would british boxing be without Amir Khan?

or Kid Lewis in 30s (I think) .....nice Jewish boy who loved his mother! ..... + a few similar who ended up in Chicago slugging it out with Capone (native born American of course) and his ilk

And here is another difference.
I am a keen (but very bad) sportsman. Cricket, Golf, Football, even tiddlywinks if I think there may be a pint afterwards. Give me the choice between being a nation that is crap at sport and ranked beside San Marino or my countrys proud and distinguished heritage being left untouched by the liberal minority and I will happily accept never going to a major championships again, and having a serious pi$$ up when we win a bronze at the olympic synchronised swimming!!
My childrens future is far more important to me than whether we can cut it at Augusta or Las Vegas, and I fear for their future in a nation where being part of the indiginous population can disadvantage you and retrict your voice and opinion.
Alan

Alan .... as i wrote earlier, i too disagree with postive discrimination and open-door immigation and several other relevant bits ..... however, and i suspect you concur, there is a Grand Canyon between that and some of the bigotted, blind prejudice and neo-Nazi views that have been expressed on this thread.

given that the law is ultimately just a reflection of the society we live in, i suspect quite strongly that some of the current excessively liberal (don't really want to use that word, but can think of no other) laws and rules will be modified within (say) the next 5 years or earlier if we are lucky.

unfortunately, for such is the nature of things, it is equally likely that some time down the line (15/20 years?) the pendulum will have swung too far towards authoritarianism etc ..... and so the cycle will continue

ohhhhh NO !!!!!!!!!....l have recently been informed l have blackies in my family tree ,,,,,,,,But its perfectly ok with me . They have been hanging there for over 3 weeks ...lolol Merely a joke to introduce a little levity into such a serious issue; and not wishing to start a trend in anti immigrant jokes ...........Harry. Lest you have not noticed l am not English.Prepped and schooled here but born in Brive-La- Gaillarde.l dont give a toss about the British empire...lmressed by it- but not inclined to really think about it. ..Ditto reg. the French empire in Africa, lndo China, and the middle east. .......................................................On a more serious note i passed a social security office recently in Deptford. And was shocked by the number of blacks who claim benefit who drive hi-performance vechicles. Now these offices have cameras patently visible on the exterior so how is it that these people are not caught for claiming benefit fraudulently ........or are you English running scared of these criminals ? ln addition a barrister friend of mine told me of some blackie he prosecuted for Armed Robbery at the CCC .This crime has a usual tarrif of 8 years to Life imp. But the Judge was also a black and sentanced him to 18 months imprisonment .Had the man been white he would have received 7-12 years . lnevitably my friend immediately filed an application of leave to appeal on the grounds of inadequacy of sentance . This was later granted with the presiding Justice remarking that the original judge should be reported to the LC s office for patently having an agenda more befitting of racism turned on its head and reeked of cronyism ((Very rare for a brother judge to appear so critical of another .Well so says Michael Mansfield who is a neighbor of mine ))...Cant tell you what the appeal Justice said off the record but what on earth is a pickerninny ( ??) as i cant find in English dictionary..............@+ J

Plus you English hardly have room to talk .l wont go into it ....But when the Jews were being persucuted by Hitlers demented motley bunch as early as 1935 , l dont recall the English accepting applications for British citizenship made on behalf of the aforementioned Jewish peoples ..........l often wonder why ?.........Unlike King Peter of Sweden who himself wore the yellow star in an illustration of his support of the Jewish peoples . ...........

TFC,
Pickerninny. I believe (though I stand to be corrected) that it was a word first created and used by J M Barrie in his novel Peter Pan. It was the name of a tribe of Indians in Never Never Land and the name was chosen to portray a sense of stupidity (Pick-A-Ninny, ninny being a word to describe a foolish person).
The word has been used (infrequently) to describe someone as foolish, though one could argue it has racial undertones as the tribe was Indian.
Think thats right. Hope it helps.
Alan

Alan . As always -very helpful .A positive font of knowledge . Thank you for both the definition and its real origins. . /...l think in this case the noun was employed in dual fashion. Both foolish and foreign ..........18 months for armed robbery .? What next ? Hardly a deterant, and morelike, a positive endorsement/ green light , to commit one of the most serious crimes in the criminal calander without rightful punishment .................................

I got a very interesting e-mail yesterday, which I will reproduce parts of below. I will leave out the senders commentary, and I cannot vouch for its accuracy, but......
The rise in support for the BNP and other far right parties may be attributable to similar feelings and the thought that the UK does not possess an MP with big enough balls to say this sort of thing, though I think the silent majority may well agree with much of the sentiment.
It is easily dismissed as a racist ranting, as a precursor to a 21st century facism and the sort of thing Hitler may have been saying about the jewish population in the 1930's.
Then read it again. It is more liberal than that and has a fairly reasonable tone, and if it does encapsulate the thoughts of middle England (and I suggest it does) then we ignore it at our peril, for ignoring it will only make the language stronger and reduce the liberal tone to a lonely voice on the edge of hearing.
This is not from a minority fringe party, or a combat 18 style bunch of neo nazis. It comes from the highest ranking government ministers in Australia.
Anyway, enough of my thoughts, what do you other posters think??


Australia Now, Canada / America Tomorrow?????



Excerpts from an on going debate in Australia.



This is true and can be checked at



http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/australia.asp Muslims who want to live under Islamic Shari law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.



A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament "If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Shari law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on National Television.



"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Shari law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said



Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.



Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.



Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks onBali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Aust ralians."



"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national iden tity. And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle."



"This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"



"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society .. Learn the language!"



"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."



"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."



"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.



"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,



'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."



"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here So accept the country YOU accepted."

The australians have it spot on!
First class post.

while the general undertone of alan's post is sound, there are certainly some aspects that jar - e.g......
1) Excepting the original convict exports, Australia is and always has been a multi-cultural society ..... As denial of this has been put as the mainstay of the argument, I would contend that whole basis is thereby flawed.

2) There seems to be a confusion between accepting there is a God, who could be Jehovah, or Allah or any other, and then narrowing it by implying that He should be the Christian version ...... In any case, I think it is more than stretching a point to contend Australia (or UK) is a Christian country and part of Australian culture ..... At best, the majority are almost certainly agnostic and probably care 10 times more for their cricket and rugby teams than any religious leaning.


For all that, and though I am a great supporter of freedom of choice and speech, I equally accept that in a "free" society there is the contradiction that that freedom has and must have limitations.

Almost but not entirely as and aside ......

Earlier in this thread, there were gripes about the heavy Asian population in Dewsbury and Halifax and Bradford and the effect on the locale .... While that is certainly so, it has been conveniently forgotten that the (grand)fathers and thus their direct families, were invited and encouraged to come over to man the wool mills and do all sorts of relatively menial tasks that the indigenous whites did not want to touch ...... No right to gripe now!

There as also a very interesting programme on Radio 4 a couple of weeks ago about this sort of thing, though it was focussed on Glasgow ..... The Asian family in question told how, when they came over with only a few pounds to their names, they were prepared to work far harder than others and as a result made a great success of their lives ..... In fact, though the mother still speaks in heavily accented English, the family was clearly more than welcome in their neighbourhood.

Surely it is the relatively small number of indolent and/or fanatical and/or criminal element who are the bane and who deserve our opprobrium ...... this may and should be applied to Asian or black or oriental or white alike, though the easy focus is on those of different skin colour

Cynic,
So as a defence we are back to the point where we debate how long one has to have their ancestry in a country before one is a member of that country??? I would suggest that 5 minutes or 5 millenia is irrelevant. The important part is to behave and act to the accepted norms.
I know this opens up a debate about indiginous criminals acting outside the acceptable norms, but we lock them up and take away their rights, because we can no longer stick them on a boat elsewhere.
As to the religious aspects, Australia is a Christian country. This is not defined by how many people attend church every Sunday, or the viewing figures for "Songs of Praise". It is the quality that defines legislature, morals and the like. A loose thread to hang together by. You would never describe India as a christian country, but it is the single largest religion in many areas, though still in a minority when measured by the aggregate of other religions.
Finally, my ancient ancestors almost certainly came over to defend the UK at the behest of Ethelred the Unready, but it gives me no right at all to spoil the lives of my neighbours, run around as if I were still in those far back days, or demand "Danegeld" of the government. My ancestors were invited, the Carribean and Asian immigrants of the last century were offered the opportunity. There is a huge difference.
Alan

"no right at all to spoil the lives of my neighbours" ... that to me is the nub of the matter, for though you do not say it, i know you intend it to be far more far-reaching.

confess i do not understand how you differentiate between "your ancestors" and the black/asian immigrants who were also "invited" ...... i would certainly agree that they were invited with the tacit understanding that they would (ultimately) blend into "our" society, and in the main, they almost certainly have.

just to nit-pick ...... indian law is still soundly based on the laws of england and their (Hindu/Sikh etc) moral principles are sometimes different from "ours" but generally perfectly acceptable to "us" too.

No. I mean what I write.
I am taking either a common sense / usage view of the word neighbours, or the classical legal view of the word. Either mean much the same in this context, and no more at all.
I have no intention of the sentence being more far reaching, and perhaps there is another issue in this debate (nationally, not here on these boards). People Infer things that are not implied and take debate to be a racial attack.

by more far-reaching, i was not at all implying other than one has a social and indeed moral obligation to live in general harmony, which means neither sacrificing the goat on the front lawn nor playing objectionably loud music nor stabbing a guy just because he is "different" nor even sunbathing naked in full and open view of the general public (naturist locations excluded!) ..... or in German/Jewish parlance, be a Mensch not a Schlock (even if you are a goy!)

Patricia Hodge states that long term British citizens should take priority over recent immigrants in the social housing queue. She is rounded on by her own colleagues and Ken Livingston, who say this is a racist thing to say and that she is wrong. They accuse her of firing support for the BNP by such a statement.
I suggest that the current system actually fires support for the BNP.
So the question is, Who has the right of the argument. Which is more damaging to race relations? A system that is bias toward those who have lived here their entire life, or one that treats new arrivals equally from the moment they arrive?
Now there is a debating point.
Opinions?
Alan

easy ..... Patricia Hodge ..... and you know my stance overall on immigration and integration makes many contributors here look 10 miles right of Oswald Moseley

Not so easy.
I read that having family or friends to live with puts you lower on the list than arriving at Heathrow pleading asylum. This cannot possibly be right. All other modern nations insist that if they grant you the right to stay there, you must be self sufficient and that includes housing.
The net effect is that those who have already contributed to the wealth of the nation have to remain in shared conditions with other generations, struggling to get on the housing ladder and unable to gain access to social housing while newly arrived immigrants are given a home (free till they find work) and have got on the housing ladder by buying the damn thing before the locals can even move out from living with Granny! This is on the basis that they might contribute something in the future.
No. This is positive discrimination, and I abhor that term because all discrimination is negative to someone, in this case those who have the most right to be protected from discrimination. If this puts me 10 miles right of Oswald Moseley, then history has misjudged a man who was clearly a communist!! Either that or your assertation is way off mark, for the view expressed above is smack bang in the middle of common sense and decency toward all people, regardless of origin. It is also the view that the vast majority of this country hold. If they are blindingly wrong, where does that leave democracy? But they are not wrong, democracy is alive and well, and the reason why the BNP (whom I personally have no time at all for) increase their support and gain a stronger voice.
Alan

Another point(s) that springs to mind.
Oswald Moseley has the claim to fame of wanting to discriminate wildly against the immigrant population, and that is a terrible thing. But can someone please enlighten me as to why discrimination against an existing population is so holy and righteous. It strikes me that it the same cat, skinned differently, but we are almost breastfed these days on the idea that one is terrible and the other is an act of intelligent and reasoned behaviour!! The real modern day Oswald Moseley is the one shouting from the rooftops that one class of person be given preferential treatment over the other. That is the argument of those who oppose Hodges statement.
On the subject of intelligent, the liberal classes have long sneered at those who believe that the only real advance is no discrimination at all among the population and that the influx of immigrants must be tightly controlled. For 50 years they have trotted out their mantra that to think any way other than they do is ignorant, uneducated, Sun reading nonsense and bigotry of the worst order. I think it is time to address that too. It is no longer good enough to answer a majority view by saying the majority do not have an understanding of the issues, or by attaching the label Nazi or Facist and hoping the argument goes away. It hasn't. it is stronger than ever.
So now is the time to ask; "If these liberal policy makers are so very clever as to spot how everyone else has it so wrong, how come 50 years of their policy has actually achieved worse race relations and demonstrated their inability to convince the population of their argument. To manage to harden attitudes to the contrary". Perhaps the non-liberal side of the debate has now earned the right to throw words like ignorant, uneducated, Guardian reading bigotry about. And answer the difficult questions with the label communist.
I love a good debate as much as anyone (more than most), but if, after 50 years of debate and evidence I was so demonstrably wrong, even I would accept the opposing viewpoint, or at least give it the chance to prove itself equally wrong.
Alan

Alan having little better to do this morning other than beaver away in the office(!)

Property inflation has been rampant for the last 10+ years and has little to do with the increase in the immigrant population. Nevertheless, if we take that being a property owner is almost an innate right, then it is indisputable that there is a shortage of low(er) priced housing stock, especially in the wealthier regions of the country. The policy of selling off council house stock has arguably worsened that situation, though of course, one was only ever a tenant.

Your opening sentence actually confuses two issues i.e. the political asylum seeker (us Jews in 30s or the African Asians more recently) and the economic refugee or straightforward immigrant as seemingly permitted under EU law (for simplicity, I shall lump them as one).

The former is something of a special case, whereas I think we are really intending to debate the latter.

While your objection to positive discrimination certainly has moral or even general validity, we are starting from an existing scenario where there are already large (some would say excessive) numbers of economic refugees. Those who arrived in 50/60s not only came under a different set of rules (effectively invited to fill an economic need), but have generally integrated into society.

IF what I read is correct, it is the influx over the last 10 years or so, exacerbated by the massive expansion of EU membership with its accompanying freedom of movement, that has caused so much potential unrest.


So, given the irreversible status quo (new immigration policies may be in the wings), if we want to help (young) people onto the property ladder, then I would have no qualms in discriminating in favour of those who have already garnered enough citizen points, however imperfect or relatively arbitrary that system may be.

=========

As an aside, Genghis Khan and his rampaging horde are generally portrayed as no more than bloodthirsty barbarians, whereas the truth is very different.

Similarly, Oswald Moseley may just be a misunderstood Communist in a black shirt as you assert. However, he and his band of disciples had all the appearances of acolytes of Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, and that is how history will judge him, until such a time as it is re-written.

"No rising star in the political firmament ever shone more brightly than Sir Oswald Mosley. Since by general assent he could have become the leader of either the Labour or the Conservative Party. What Mosley so valiantly stood for could have saved this country from the Hungry Thirties and the Second World War". - Michael Foot, M.P.

"The greatest comet of British politics in the twentieth century . . . an orator of the highest rank. He produced, almost unaided, a programme of economic reconstruction which surpassed anything offered by Lloyd George or, in the United States, by F. D. Roosevelt... He has continued fertile in ideas.. These ideas came to him by inspiration . . . Interned quite absurdly under Regulation 18B during the Second World War. . . He was never anti-Semitic - only opposed to a Second World War for the sake of Jews elsewhere. He was never unpatriotic - only indifferent to German conquests in eastern Europe... A superb political thinker, the best of our age". - A.J.P.Taylor

"A man who had aimed throughout his life at what he might describe as a Greek idea of excellence . He is anxious to synthesise the impulses of religion and science ... In the field of ideas he was a creative force... His tremendous talents as a platform speaker and parliamentary debater were available to give maximum effect. If events had so decided and awarded him the supreme office he would not have lacked the dedication nor the courage" - Earl of Longford

"He had an impeccable record in the First World War . . It was silly to intern Mosley during the Second World War. He was not in the least unpatriotic, any more than he was anti-Semitic or in favour of revolution by force.. . He had, I think, greater natural political talent than any survivor of his generation from the First World War" - Sir Colin Coote

"Attentive, considerate and infinitely courteous. . . he talks like a statesman who may be in the wilderness but who knows he is not finished yet... Sir Oswald believes in a consensus government, with people from the parties, the universities, public life and the army.. . Would go to the stake for Britain and her people" - Geoffrey Moorhouse

"A man of powerful will and bold intelligence, self-disciplined, by no means lacking in shrewdness or even humour, a spell-binding speaker, a truly formidable figure". - Colin Welch

"In his extraordinary career as soldier, politician, socialite, international sportsman, he had known most of the prominent people of his time.., a spectacular career". - George Murray

"He might have been able to lead either the Conservative or the Labour Party and in either case . . . I should have joined him. I discerned in him . . . this kind of quality of leadership that I discerned in only two other men during all my period of political life. One is Lloyd George and the other is Churchill". - Lord Boothby

"The stuff of greatness - more than a spark of genius". - John Blake

Diana Mosley - Loved Ones
IT may be considered inappropriate to include a short memoir of Oswald Mosley in a book about friends. We were married for forty-four years, my knowledge of him and my love for him can obviously not be compared with the affection I bore the other characters I have tried to describe. As I shall never write his biography, which on the political side has been adequately done by Robert Skidelsky and is certain to be done again, and as his autobiography My Life was a highly-praised bestseller when it was published in 1968, all that seems necessary is a short account of the man himself in private life, and perhaps to clear up one or two mysteries....

the quotes are rivetting ..... to repeat ..... history tells it differently, as is far from uncommon, and will continue to do so until it is rewritten.

leave it with you.