Top faller in the Banking sector today with a 25% fall are they about to go bust as the housing market stalls .. are they another Northern Rock failure about to blow.

No more likely a predator like LLOY will snap them up. At tonights closing sp their market cap of around 1.25 billion is more or less the same as their balance sheet tangible net worth.I would expect to see a rebound in the sp tomorrow which will catch the shorters out.A yield north of 12% should not be missed!

Should be interesting halifax to whether they do rebound.

Just scare mongering from Nrk experience only difference is they are not in debt. Should rebound tomorrow. No doubt shorters were having a laugh today, but they better to watch out tomorrow though IMO. I may buy. 21p divi/NRK - nil that the difference.

A petition is underway it seems:

Petition

We call on the FSA to investigate whether Steven Crawshaw, the CEO of the Bradford & Bingley, has committed Market Abuse

In March, when bear raiders spread false rumours that banks were planning rights issues, the banks and the FSA said this was market abuse as investors had as a result trades shares on the basis of falsehood. On 14th April Bradford & Bingley said it was NOT planning a rights issue. Investors buying shares on that basis paid 165p.

On 18th of May a deeply discounted rights issue was announced. The shares trade at 115p. Investors have lost 30% in just 1 month because they bought shares on the basis of the B&B statement. We believe the FSA should investigate Steven Crawshaw, the B&B CEO whose package in 2007 was a staggering 1,112,548, to determine whether he and his board are guilty of market abuse.

If you agree, join the petition and sign HERE ( http://www.petitiononline.com/FSABing/petition.html )

pp so you do work for Sharecrazy.com!

They are doing well arnt they.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/bb-sinks-ever-lower-as-investors-play-the-blame-game-860591.html

20p target here.This can only go one way.

im in 44p for my dartboard portfolio

stop being so joyful at the demise of british companies mitzy......i know it might be a typical british way in not wanting things to be successful but can u please stop it.
some of your own tips like arena aint doing well

i think yer on the wrong thread

BB is looking a bit sad so is my AL. I got out of bb feeling a bit done after it went to 500p+ buy or not to buy could this be another N/Rock.

0p target by one analyst yesterday..!

worth -14p it says

online trading platforms so tricky to use - i thought i had bought yesterday but infact had sold shares i didnt have. never mind, sorted it out this morning... im in now at 34p

you know if you want to throw your money away, you could always give it to me to invest..

Anyway Mr Magoo,at least you have a legitimate excuse in your name.
Anyone fancy buying onel of B&bs bonds ?They offer 7%.

i thinkyou will find anyone saying there shares r worth 0pence have there own agenda i do not see the government allowing banks and builders to fail it would be catastrophic for them

funny - my account has gone up 2k... thats nice, my broker do look after me :)

I bought these ages ago at 1.65. Can't believe how far they have fallen :)

I see that the 2 underwriters for the rights issue have sub underwriters, namely all the other british banks....looks like they may be looking after one of their own :)

and if you read the press this am, taking heavy losses if the sp stays under the rights price.

400m is more than you need in a bank of this size... i remember lloyds, midland and natwest doing rights issues of this size in the 1970s but they are much bigger banks. this is really just a building society

you will be surprised

Mr Magoo What was the recession like in 1973/4 and when did Banks recover, cheers.

baylis - It's no good asking Mr Magoo, the last time I saw him he was talking to a coat stand. :-)

Were there 2 hats hanging on that coat stand?

Holding lots of these and buying on the lows, ok so your looking at a fall in yield sooner or later but the companies intangables are worth the market cap. Also the BoE and government have promised assistane if needed shown with NRK. Big over reaction in the market at the moment which I see as oppertunity. Each to their own though.

these markets are very easy to understand - just buy up shares when they are cheap and sell them when they are expensive

took my profits - 48 is not my lucky number

hey mitxy........you 20p target looks knackered......it can only go one way u say.....is that up?

I thought you would say that never mind you cant win them all

Rift oil is going great today so no problems.

if u shorted it then serves u right

48 always brings bad news

why cant these move away from 48p

sorry new to the site, just wondering if BB are a good buy when they are trading as low as 55p, and advice would be great. thanks

55 sounds a bit high, as they've touched lower - only picked up by cocerted effort over Bank Rights, such as HBOS - and look where that is!

What's yr view?

pcyam
Also looking to buy but it must be a punt IMO could recover to 200p in a couple of years.

If there is one thing certain, B&B will get taken over.

the problem is at what price. Wouldn't have thought it would be below the rights price but you never know!

For some reason the shares have stopped trading over the last week and appear stuck at 52p

atleast its not 48p

got one of those spread bet accounts- after reading all the advice from smart posters on this website I bought 2000 worth of HBOS today... wanted to keep it small to start with... off to the beaches with mcbarker tomorrow for some weeks to sap up the sun and find women....

Down 17% today and I never even noticed.

Love the smell of burning.

is this price rise the result of shorters buying out or has something fundamentally changed?
all the banks seem to have risen this morning surley the Dow coouldn't have had that much effect!!!
Alex

Up 80%.

..Again for how long?

Was 47p but now falling back.

robertalexander- see my Lloy post which I think probably explains it.

its a confidence trick, sucking new money in before an almighty crash. For all intent and purposes Shorting stocks had already stopped as the large pension funds would not loan their shares as finally realising the fee's they were making were nothing on the loss of equity from the turmoil. Despite this HBOS still traded nearly .5 billion shares. People will wake up and when they do it is going to hurt. Most people are stuggling to trade at these prices anyway because of the trading platforms so it is nothing but a paper illusion. IMO

Absolutely, but they have to find a way to protect the banking system and shift the burden onto the gereral public or taxpayer. Taxes cannot rise in this environment so currencies will take the brunt and some of the debt will effectively be inflated away over time. It will effect everybody.

This week will pass into history the banks that survive BB. for one IMO will slowly get back to normality and the sp back to 100p-200p + long term. accumulate while you can.

It has been an interesting week for all of us investors riding this roller-coaster ride.

I start the bidding at 20p.

Interesting article on short sellin which explains it better:

"Those who argue for unrestricted short-selling ignore the fact that the system is loaded in favour of the bears. If an individual invests 1,000, or an institution 1m, in the shares of a troubled company because they think in the long term it will recover, they have deployed their capital, and all they can do is wait. There is no more to invest; their resources are finite.
If a short-seller comes on the scene, his resources are in effect infinite because he first borrows the shares he then sells. Given that the revenue from the sale is more than the borrowing cost of the shares, he has no net capital constraint and can continue indefinitely - so much so that in one celebrated case a few years ago, one person shorted 250% of a company's equity, though he did get into trouble for it.

If the target is a bank, the dice are even more loaded. As the selling drives the share price down, two things happen.

First, the rating agencies announce a review of the credit rating, or worse a downgrade. This will force the bank to sell assets to shore up its capital position, and will set alarm bells ringing. At the same time, other banks will get nervous about dealing with it as a counterparty and either curb their business or charge more, thereby weakening the target bank still further.

Short-selling becomes self-fulfilling because the tumbling share price erodes confidence in the bank, and that weakens so it is worth less - until the ultimate cataclysm when people start queuing in the street to withdraw their money, at which point it is doomed and the authorities have to nationalise it.

However, in doing this it is politically impossible for them to bail out the shareholders. So they take the bank over for nothing - or get it rescued at a much-reduced price - thereby wiping out the long-term investors who are the bedrock of the system, handing massive rewards to the short-sellers who have done the damage and leaving the taxpayer to finance the clean-up.

On the way, they have destroyed a business that did not need to be destroyed. So yes. It is time short-selling of banks was banned. "

But say I have a very large load of shares in a company and decide I don't like its prospects and dump them in one go. Then other investors see my trade, review their position and follow suit thus probably dumping their holds. The SP plummets and then I decide that the price fits the fundamentals and buy am I wrong to. The results are similar to the people using derivatives and they are using other peoples shares and paying interest for the loan of the money.

25p today and could go to 15p before a bid appears.

Doubt that , reading on Motley ING possibly make offer before end of week, bought earlier at 26.5 - so not too worried yet ! Looks like all the U.K banks are going to be owned by foreigners shortly. U.S get there fingers out and another take over and we'll see the crazy deals of last week - here's hoping:-)

After hours RNS could boost the sp in the morning:





RNS Number : 1345E
Bradford & Bingley PLC
23 September 2008





Bradford & Bingley plc



Bradford & Bingley and GMAC-RFC announce new terms for mortgage agreement

Bradford & Bingley (the Company) and GMAC-RFC confirm today that they have successfully
renegotiated the terms of their mortgage forward
sale agreement.

Under the original terms of the agreement, signed in December 2006, the Company agreed to
purchase a minimum of 350m of UK mortgage
assets per quarter, with 1.75bn remaining to be purchased before the end of 2009.

Both businesses have agreed to revise the terms of this agreement to their mutual benefit
whereby 500m of loans will be acquired in Q4
2008 and between 225m and 250m in Q1 2009 after which the agreement will cease. GMAC-RFC
will receive in lieu, the equivalent of the
premium that would have been paid should the agreement have run the full term.


ENDS

Still far too risky to buy..

Agree with Mitzy. Tempting, but I think further to fall. 15p could be worth a punt.

why would it be worth a punt at 15p but not now ? Personally got in at 24p yesterday and would be seriously concerned of loosing my money if it fell to 15p as far more likely to hit the wall than when hovering around its current base. Can't get my head around some of the numbers people come out with to justify their actions

No one seems interested at take over at 25p my thinking is at 15p a takeover would be cheap price to snatch it. moe likley BB will fail as NRK IMHO

maybe not but i don't see any immediate fear that they will go bust either. Im sure there will be another relief rally when the US gets their finger out and they approve the bail out plan. I will sell into that rally.It was impossible to jump on to it last time so taking the chance of positioning myself early. If it falls to 15p ill double my already sizeable holding as funding model somewhat different to NR

The thing that worries me about taking a punt and hoping a for buyout is that they have lots of iffy loans self certified etc

Fitch rating has been cut...very dodgy even if it goes to 15p.

Its a sorry state that when I started this thread BB was trading at 250p and now look at them..23p.

another dopey lot from yorkshire......bradford, halifax

At least we have a bank.

seem to remember you were careless enough to lose yours last week ...


;-)

it was halifax that brought it down u dimwit!!!! bank of scotland was fine until halifax guys tok over.....none have knowledge oif banking. wake up and have some knowledge on matter before making flippant comments.
oh.....and what u going to do about pensions....and currency

ah, i forgot u r a dealer.....not really interested in structure of a country......probably one of the many apethetic people in this woeful country these days......no wonder more and more brits r leaving

and it was nothing to do with being careless.....it was idiots in city making up false rumours (as usual) about hbos lending capability. hbos is highly profitable company....more than 5 billion profit in last statement.

your comments make u out to be a moron, dealer

thats like saying......at least scotland has scottish people in its football team.......whereas england has africans or wherever they come from

Just say NO..

10% down again this morning BB could soon be HMG.BB

Sub 20p tomorow maybe.

Could be at that today

B&B has been hit by rocketing numbers of customers defaulting on their mortgages or falling behind on interest payments. It specialises in lending to buy-to-let landlords and to higher-risk "self-certified" borrowers, people who have not had to provide proof on income to qualify for loans.

Richard Pym, the new chief executive parachuted in last month to try to save the bank, said, "The changes we have announced today focus the business as a strong savings bank, reduce the size of our lending activities and increase our capacity in arrears collection."

B&B shares slumped 8 per cent to 23p, far below the 55p a share price at which the bank raised emergency capital in the summer. B&B said it remained strongly capitalised.

The bank also warned staff that it planned to cut the size of the head office workforce in Yorkshire at a later date. The Borehamwood processing centre will close in the first quarter of 2009.

The Financial Services Authority has become increasingly concerned about B&B and its heavy dependence on the paralysed wholesale markets for much of its funding.

Down 13% now something is going to happen soon

Good job the short sellers are locked out otherwise I feel sure they would have pounded BB and it would have been the end.

370 jobs to go

For starters

I've heard the CEO is working the till, then stays behind and cleans.

Maybe retribution for the Asian invasion in Bradford during the 70s & 80s and 90s

lol

am i the only buyer out there ? Im either going to be crying in my soup in the poor house or laughing in my Ferrari if this ever sorts itself as will be paying more in capital gains tax on the dividend than i used to earn in the city. Anyway have my limit orders to buy even more if it gets pummeled to the 15p area. Off to the first night F1 Grand prix practice session as likley to be far less stressful

If the deal isn't done in the US, IMO this will have gone by the middle to the end of next week. Probably taken over but whether the shareholders get anything back is debatable.

I wish you luck and if you get your Ferrari, can I have a go?

You can have a drive of my Skoda ......

Don't lool like the US deal is done. Should be interesting to see how UK banks do today. I think it is curtains for BB in the next few days

sub 20p for the first time.

Hey scotsman I won my bet..!

BB Now 18p down over 15%

You're right...18p...could be sub 10p next week.

I don't think it will last till next week. Something will happen today, or over the weekend. Shares Could be suspended today. 17.5 now

Its ok GB is in America holding talks with Bush re a possible bail out of BB.

im definately off to the garnd prix now have just hit another limit down and now the owner of 1/2 million fast approaching worthless shares. If this rescue plan does not get signed off at the weekend then I am seriously concerned that there will be nothing left on Monday.

I think Gordon is going to copy Bush's idea as usual and cost more demise to our economy.

If the US bailout goes through, it will cost each American $US2333. Why should they absorp the burden when the fatcats get all the bonuses in good times?

Put 10p on tax and lets have back the old days when top earners paid 90 CGT
Hedge fund high earners should pay tax at 98p

Only joking the only tax I pay now is bar fines.

You've been to Thailand then ...

naughty boy ;-)

Looks bad for this company...people losing jobs...hope they won't fire the lovely B&B girl in her bowler hat !.

I live there my friend

We should be on the other thread as this company's epic code is: BB.

STOCKS NEWS EUROPE-Bradford & Bingley slides on funding worries
AFX


- STOCKS NEWS Reuters Results diary

Stocks on the move Real-time Equity News



09:03GMT 26Sept2008-Bradford & Bingley slides on continued funding worries

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shares in British mortgage lender Bradford & Bingley slide as a cost-cutting programme unveiled on Thursday fails to dispel concerns over its funding position, analysts say.

Shares are down more than 8 percent after falling as much as 22 percent earlier in the session.

'B&B is in deep loss for 2008, and I presume the dividend will be passed,' says a London-based analyst.

On Thursday B&B shed 370 jobs and said it had sold its remaining impaired mortgage-backed securities at a loss of 50.8 million pounds.

B&B shares are down more than 60 percent since the beginning of the month, with the bank's high dependence on expensive wholesale funding raising doubts over its prospects as an independent lender, analysts say.

Reuters Messaging: rm://myles.neligan@reuters.com@reuters.net

According to papers they had no buyers for the company.

None whatsoever...but they are offering 7% for their 1 year bond account.

lets see what happens in the us at the weekend as it could all change

Bradford & Bingley Faces Takeover

B&B 'To Be Sold Tomorrow'



Sky sources say troubled lender Bradford & Bingley will not survive the weekend as an independent business.

The troubled lender is set to become the latest victim of the credit crunch


It is expected that the bank, whose value has plummeted in recent months, is the latest victim of the credit crunch.

Sources say the bank will most likely be "carved up" amongst several "white knight" buyers. A final decision is expected tomorrow.

Sky News business correspondent Joel Hills said: "These talks have been going on for some time.

"The share price has collapsed - two years ago people were paying up to 2 for these shares. At the close of the week they were trading at around 20p each."

Yet Hills said it was "inconceivable" that the government would allow savers to lose any money, adding: "Please don't think your money is unsafe."

The Government is said to be hoping a private bank will come forward and agree to take over the troubled lender.

If no deal goes through, moves to nationalise the bank will proceed tomorrow, say Sky sources.

The details of any prospective national takeover remain unclear. The Government may choose to keep the bank as a separate entity or could take Bradford & Bingley onboard, selling off the assets.

City commentator Justin Urqhart Stewart said the lender are in trouble because the buy-to-let market is very weak - and deteriorating.

He said any proposed Government takeover would mean "we have to take on more financial responsibility, meaning the government will have to pay more.

"This is not the time for the Government to splash around. The money just isn't there unless they're going to carry out more borrowing."

Mr Urqhart Stewart called any such move the "British" version of the US bail-out plan.

Earlier in the week, Bradford & Bingley announced 370 job losses in an attempt to streamline operations.

Last month, it reported a 27m loss for the first six months of the year, blaming a rise in bad debts and losses on mortgage backed investments.

Just heard Sky news say they are in big trouble..!

They are gone!

(Say BBC)

Will be merged with Northern Rock by HMG.

No prizes for guessing how much HMG will be paying for it...

shareholders expected to get nothing

stroreysj - 26 Sep 2008 07:27 - 85 of 109
am i the only buyer out there ? Im either going to be crying in my soup in the poor house or laughing in my Ferrari if this ever sorts itself as will be paying more in capital gains tax on the dividend than i used to earn in the city. Anyway have my limit orders to buy even more if it gets pummeled to the 15p area. Off to the first night F1 Grand prix practice session as likley to be far less stressful

Hope you sold Friday mate.

Shareholders get ZERO!!!



Troubled bank Bradford & Bingley is to be nationalised, the BBC has learned.

Officials from the Treasury and the Financial Services Authority (FSA) have been in talks with executives from the bank in a bid to secure its future.

BBC business editor Robert Peston says the Treasury will then speedily sell B&B's 200 branches and its savings business to a bank or number of banks.

B&B told savers deposits were safe and Treasury minister Yvette Cooper said they would be "properly protected".

Ms Cooper told the BBC negotiations were still ongoing, but the chancellor would make a statement before the markets opened on Monday.

"We've been very clear that the priority is to make sure that depositors, that ordinary savers, are properly protected, but also that we can support the financial stability of the banking system as a whole."

B&B's share price plummeted to a record low last week.

and why should they get anything?

just come back from a fantastic grand prix and very happy Alonso won. This has just brought me back to earth with a bump. 85k out of pocket now thats what i call a big bump. Once again common day theft from the british government

what theft? ..... you reckon B&B was going to survive or have you just been making some other bad investment choices?

I would think stupidity of the shareholders not to rein in the board!

Capitalism gone mad!

Without Govt intervention BB was busted. The big picture is to regain global financial stability, not to protect shareholders, especially those trying to bottom fish in the hope of making a killing.

Don't say we did not warn you last week.

Let's see how the markets react on Monday. I for one will be shorting stocks in the main for the rest of this year at least.

can't believe i was so thick as not to short "banking sector" some time ago ...... it just never crossed my mind to ask if one could, and of course one can as well as any number of others .... anyway, for tomorrow at least, still probably plenty to be made long on the indices in general

storey

Sorry mate. Bottom fishing is a dangerous game as I know. It can make you loads but of course it can do the opposite.

At least I hope the Grand prix was good.

live by the sword die by the sword. Sometime it comes off sometimes it doesn't not something im going to loose sleep over as out of my hands. As for cynic while I accept the the governements position with NR and the need to get back the BOE emergency loans this situation is not the same for B&B. They are still a well capitalised bank, although admittedly not as good as they were with the recent withdrawls, there has been no emergency loan and the government has acquired 51 billion of assets in addition to receiving cash from santander for the branch network. With a cmpany who had a technical book value of less than 400 million on Friday I fail to see how there is nothing for shareholders, hence the use of the word theft. If you don't see that you are either one of Gordon's or Alister's love children, harmour a deep rooted resentment to investors or just plain stupid. Reading your numerous posts over the years I don't believe it that latter. Anyway im still smiling

strorey .... glad you don't think i am stupid, though i do not altogether subscribe that view, but you are well wide of the mark with your other accusations or assumptions - lol!

sorry to say, but B&B were very clearly not as well capitalised as you like to delude yourself ..... common sense should ask if any democratic government (except perhaps of venezuela and the ilk) would want to nationalise a bank unless it was seen to be the lesser of two evils,

Cynic quite clearly the case but i still think its criminal what they have done to shareholders and also pinned all other banks on the hook. Anyway hasnt wiped me out, although had a good go. Im off for some gratuitious sex in Indonesia, lick my wounds and come back tomorrow for another beating tomorrow

Frankly speaking....it's a right mess.....the decision to natioalise BB....is it the right one or not ?......and where do you stop ?....if my little business goes bust nobody is going to help me, so why should this government help other private institutions ?.

Storeysj

Sorry to read of your loss on BB., I'm sure you will make up for it one way or another. I must admit I did look last week at BB. when it was 25p, with a view of a modest long in the hope it might be taken over.

I knew it was a bit of gamble, but fortunately I didn't trade, I think I was starting to overtrade with stocks, which is a very tempting thing to do in these markets. So lesson learnt and I will play more golf this week, not as exciting as gratuitious sex agreed, and I will wait for the dust to settle.

i too am sorry for your loss strorey, but the gov't has assuredly acted in everyone's best interest .... the shareholders were going to end up with nothing anyway ..... whether the directors of B&B acted recklessly is a slightly different question, but they would seem to have been no more reckless than a stack of other far bigger names - e.g. lehman and fortis and hbos to name but 3

it was halifax that was problem in hbos...........and it was andy hornby who kept on buying housebuilders. hbos is still ok though unlike other comparisons u make cynic whether its lehman or b&B........sorry story as well, my heart goes out to u

Not getting any better this market....goes from bad to worse...!.

only get better with a change of gov

Am I dreaming, or did Andy Hornby's name appear in the list of Directors for the combined LLOY-BOS ?
-Surely he should never work again.

B&B
-Along with Northwern Rock, the shareholders are wicked people who dare make money from the investments of the business. Because of this, they deserve nothing! Odd then that savers, who . . . expect a return from the investments of the business . . . have a g'tee scheme to refund every penny.
Even more odd that these are often the same people - who were given shares when Demutalised . . . . and don't they regret that now? This includes staff who will be lucky to find jobs in finance due to the much-lower levels of activity, mortgage, etc.
Demutalising was a con perpetuated by greedy Management . . . .( and I see parallels with Cattles, down 8% today DYOR).
Unfortunately the folk that destroyed these businesses appear to get-off and even have the nerve to collect Golden handshakes, pensions etc for their poor stewardship.
What is almost absent is any shareholder-Power to stop thisManagement excess - shareholders are not allowed to critisise Management - AGM's are by-and-large a joke although some companies retain old-fashioned values on the surface.

+I wonder if the Mutual Company would still be in business . . . and I have a suspicion they would, albeit smaller - but with actual cash in their vaults and not rotten, stinking, low-grade mortgages and dubious loans.

cynic I'm not convinced this "nationalising" is in everyone's interest - Short-term it saves GB from worse as it buys respite and many will believe all is OK - but taxpayers are the same people that will lose out if B&B went under - all we are doing is spreading the cost over more folks - and some are already on the breadline - yet all are expected to contribute to this fiasco - just the same as all Londoners are contributing 30p/week to the Olympic fund....whatever happened to "No taxation, without Representation"? I live in London and have no say - the 2012 Olympics will be a very expensive Political Jamboree - IMHO.

Scotinvestor, what are yr views on the new LLOY-BOS? - as I see it, my LLOY investment has seen a recent fall of 30% - maybe this represents the "dilution" despite their assurances the combined company will have much more turnover, profit etc. - at least long-term when the current woes are a distant memory (and Britain is winning Gold at the London Olympics. dream-on).

Arrgh!

nationalisation means taxpayers paying for years if not decades to come.....nrk is costing everyone at least 3k or 4k.

i believe andy hornby got senior role as he has to convince shareholders as well as almost every person in scotland that LLoyds deal is good........HBOS are valued at about 5 so lloy are getting it for a song........hence why hornby getting 2 miilion quid in shares plus senior role as a bribe (err i mean incentive).......oops am i being cynical, tsk tsk.

i agree that hornby shouldnt work even 1 day in a bank ever again.....i woouldnt have him in charge of a sweetie shop let alone anything else

Lost a bit on these nothing else to say.

HAHHAHAHAAHHA lucky i never bought on Friday

Shares risky game