Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

First I hope not, but prety sure that revenge actions will increase all over.

I don't think T. L. and E. O will be tried for war crimes this time or for the next one as this is not the first war crime.

The price of oil will go down in 4 weeks time but if any attacks happened will go up so quikly.

Important date to remember ..16th January 2009 not sure what the significance is but Coln Powell said that something would happen in the World around then.

It's almost as if Israel is deliberately fuelling Terrorism....their actions are totally unjustified.

I take it that you would not object to the odd rocket falling on your house.

Have a look at this site, and the reasoning behind the "action".

During my wanderings I visited this village. It summates the futility of war.

http://www.oradour.info/images/catalog1.htm

The Germans were offering the same reasons as Israel is giving today.

" O will they never learn"

'The Germans were offering the same reasons as Israel is giving today.'

Would you like to offer some evidence to support that comment?

Are you intending to use every conflict in history as a comparison to the Israeli action? Seems you're working through them all both here and on the Traders thread?

Ph I am pointing out some of the similarities between the Israel propaganda and other conflicts. Also pointing out the results of the "eye" for the "eye" approach. The approaches were/are disproportionate and can be seen as "eyes" for and "eye".

What is forgotten is the "State of Israel" sprang from a terrorist organisation.

"There you lead, I will follow!"

For Mash heads
ISRAEL has agreed to open a corridor into Gaza for essential humanitarian supplies and then fire hundreds of missiles at it.


Israeli F-15s are fitted with school-seeking missiles
As the international community accused the Israelis of using a sledgehammer to crack a school, the Tel Aviv government pledged to increase both the level of aid to Palestinian civilians and attacks upon it.

A spokesman said: "We're happy to provide humanitarian supplies as long as you understand that anything going in or out of Gaza is a legitimate target. I'm afraid there's nothing we can do about that."

The Israeli airforce last night issued a map showing the route the aid convoys will take and the exact points where each truck will be blown to smithereens.

Meanwhile Hamas has pledged to commandeer any humanitarian supplies that make it through, fill them with semtex and fire them at settlements in southern Israel.

A Hamas spokesman said: "For every bag of rice you send us without blowing it up, we will send back thousands of pieces of exploding rice. How's about that?"

Meanwhile UN secretary general Ban Ki Moon said that while Hamas is undoubtedly a collection of grade-A psychopaths, firing home-made rockets is not quite the same thing as having a personalised bomb for every Palestinian man, woman and child.

You either backed up Israel when you heard the first bell
Palestine would be fine if they towed the right line
Poor children lay dead.. all crumpled in bed
Brave soldiers are told.. no sorrow be bold

Now as you all knowfights come and they go
But not this oneand Ill tell you why

What you mustnt forgetis the reasonand yet
It was so damned stupid and daft..
I once told a friend and in the end he just laughed and he laughed and he laughed
They fought over thatwell Ill eat my hatits the same old story today
When involved in a fighttheres no wrong or no right
Nobody has the last say!
OK!

http://www.elfarra.org/gallery/gaza.htm

Simple solution-Hamas stop indiscriminate firing of unsophisticated rockets and Israel will withdraw and a ceasefire will be put in place.

Am I the only one who can see the solution.

Strange how no head of any Arab Govt-apart from Syria,no surprise there,has stood up and are prepared to side with Hamas.

I think the majority of International Aid bodies are condemning Israels disproportionate actions. Or is it one rule for the Bullies and another for the Bullied.

Collateral damage, or just another AID worker.

What is disproportionate-have a read below.


On Dec. 27, Israel began "Operation Cast Lead" to stop Iran-backed Hamas in Gaza from continuing its years-long campaign of attacking Israeli civilians with thousands of rockets, missiles and mortars. Following are facts and figures to help you relate to Israel 's defensive efforts in Gaza :
Iran-backed Hamas Rocket, Mortar Attacks and Nuclear Developments
9,400+
rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2003. [1]

3,200+
rockets and mortars fired from Gaza in 2008 alone. [2]

6,500+
rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. [3]

543+
rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israeli territory during the ceasefire from June 19 to Dec. 19, 2008. [4]

28
deaths caused by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001. The dead include Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the ceasefire ended, Iran-backed Palestinian groups in Gaza fired rockets and mortars that killed an Israeli-Arab construction worker and a mother of four who was seeking shelter in a bus station as a rocket warning siren sounded. [5]

1,000+
people in Israel injured from rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001, including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the ceasefire, 44 Israelis have been injured and 200 have been treated for shock. [6]

20,000
Hamas troops Israel is targeting as part of "Operation Cast Lead." [7]

750,000
number of Israeli civilians Hamas is targeting and can reach. [8]

15
seconds Israelis have to get to a bomb shelter once a warning siren has sounded. [9]

8
years that Israel has been hit by rockets and mortars from Gaza [10]

3
mosques in Gaza used as weapons, ammunitions and explosives depots that were struck by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the operation in Gaza . [11]

4
UN Security Council resolutions passed since 2006 to try to stop Iran from enriching uranium. [12]

5,000+
number of centrifuges operating in Iran to enrich uranium, the material used to produce a nuclear weapon. [13]



Israel's Humanitarian Aid to Gaza

179
truckloads of humanitarian aid that have been delivered through Israeli crossings into Gaza since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead, including basic food commodities, medication, medical supplies, donations of governments and blood units.

106
additional truckloads of humanitarian expected to arrive in Gaza on Jan. 31 [14]

6,500
tons of aid transported into Gaza at the request of international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments since the beginning of Operation Cast Lead. The World Food Program informed Israel that it will cease shipment of food to Gaza because warehouses are at full capacity, with enough food to last two weeks. [15]

What Israel Gave Up in Hopes of Peace - Gaza Withdrawal Aug. 2005
100%
proportion of the Gaza Strip evacuated and handed over to the
Palestinians. [16]

300
square miles of the West Bank evacuated. [17]

21
Israeli settlements uprooted in the Gaza Strip. [18]

4
Israeli settlements uprooted in the West Bank . [19]

48
graves uprooted in Gaza 's former Gush Katif Cemetery , including six graves of area residents murdered by terrorists. [20]

9,000
approximate number of Israelis, including 1,700 families, who lived in Gaza and the northern West Bank . All of them were moved out as part of the withdrawal. [21]

38
synagogues dismantled in the Gaza Strip. [22]

5,000
school-age children who had to find new schools. [23]

42
daycare centers that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [24]

36
kindergartens that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [25]

7
elementary schools that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [26]

3
high schools that were closed in the Gaza Strip. [27]

320
mobile homes, ordered by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, to serve as temporary housing for settlers. [28]

45,000
Israeli soldiers and policemen who participated in the Gaza withdrawal. [29]

$1.7 billion
the approximate cost to the Israeli government for the withdrawal initiative. [30]

166
Israeli farmers who were moved out of Gaza . [31]

800
cows, which comprised the second largest dairy farm in Israel , moved out of Gaza 's Gush Katif community. [32]

$120 million
value of flowers and produce exported annually from Gush Katif and lost following the evacuation. [33]

1
zoo, the "Katifari," that housed hundreds of animals and was moved. [34]

10,000
people who were employed in agriculture and related industries in Gush Katif, including 5,000 Palestinians. [35]

60%
proportion of Israel 's cherry tomato exports that came from the Gaza Strip. Israel 's withdrawal from Gaza extinguished this economic resource. [36]

3.5 million
square meters (almost 1,000 acres ) of greenhouses abandoned in Gaza . [37]

70
percentage of Israel 's organic produce grown in Gaza another economic resource lost in the evacuation. [38]

60
percentage of herbs exported from Israel that came from Gush Katif. [39]

15
percentage of Israel agricultural exports that originated in Gaza exports lost following Israel 's withdrawal from Gaza . [40]

$360,000
expected average compensation amount Israel expected to pay to relocate each family. [41]

$870 million
approximate cost for Israel to facilitate the resettlement of former West Bank and Gaza residents elsewhere in the country. [42]

$500 million
amount of money Israel 's security establishment spent to relocate Israel Defense Forces bases outside the Gaza Strip and build new border crossing facilities. [43]

After Israel 's evacuation from Gaza
430,000
West Bank Palestinians able to move freely within and between Palestinian-controlled areas. [44]

1
Israeli remaining in Gaza . Staff Sgt. Gilad Shalit was abducted from Israel on June 25, 2006 by Hamas in a bloody cross-border raid in which the terrorists also killed two IDF soldiers and wounded four others. [45]

1.2 million
Arabs who remained full and legal citizens of Israel . All Israeli citizens Christians, Muslims, and Jews have freedom of speech, religion, press, and the right to vote. [46]

1.3 million
Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip many of them in Palestinian Authority-controlled refugee camps, who live under their own leaders. [47]

820,000
Jewish refugees forced to flee without their belongings from Arab countries between 1947 and 1949, and who have never been compensated by Arab governments for their losses. [48]

650,000
Arab refugees who left Israel from 1947-1949 and still need Palestinian leaders who will end terrorism and the culture of hate. [49]


Israel 's withdrawal from four northern West Bank settlements created an area more than twice the size of Gaza's 140 square miles under Palestinian control and devoid of any Israeli presence. [50]

frankly, i am almost as appalled by USA's support of Israel's action as i am of the action itself.

no one would pretend that Hamas is (remotely) blameless, but there is no doubt that Israel has made Gaza little better than a ghetto of the type initially imposed on the Jews in Warsaw. If you were a Palestinian, what would you do?

Israel is also very keen to harp on about various UN resolutions that Hamas has ignored, but what about those similarly imposed and ignored by Israel?

cynic - if i 'wrere' a palestinian I'd be bringing aid in through whatever channels are currently being used to bring in rocketfuel, explosives and arms.

interesting idea, but i think there are probably some good legit and logistical reasons why your idea would not work

cynic if you were Palestinian living in Gaza you could join your compatriots in UAE but then you wouldn't receive any UN handouts.

???? ..... if you mean the imported workers into UAE, then believe me, i am well aware that they get pretty harsh conditions ..... actually, i think most Palestinians are actually of Jordanian or Syrian extraction.

anyway, that is a side issue ..... in my opinion, the Palestinians have every right to expect to have their own homeland and to be treated like human beings if they live in Israel or Gaza.

Israel equally has a right to live peaceably, but that is a two-way transaction ..... on the other hand, Israel has no rights at all to have annexed and built settlements on Left Bank.

Jerusalem should be an "open" city, perhaps under the auspices of UN for lack of a better alternative, where all faiths would have an inalienable right to visit and pray at their particular "holy of holies"

Cynic

you paint this as though its some kind of israeli racist attack against palestinians - and it certainly is not.

Plenty of palestinians do live in Israel - where they are quite properly treated as equals, have all the usual demoocratic rights etc.

The West Bank is thriving economically and receives regular help and assistance from Israel.

Gaza's only export seems to be used rocket cases in their thousands. This incursion is about self defence - make no mistake.

cynic you should be aware there are more Palestinians living outside the conflict areas than within. Most people living in the middle east tend to be "nomadic" and there is nothing wrong with that. The Israel/Palestine conflict will not be resolved unless the rest of the world turns away having tired of this pointless argument and stops supplying weapons and money to both sides.But if that is allowed to happen then a lot of people in high places would lose their share of the money being squandered on this never ending cost to us ordinary taxpayers.

This is a conflict that will run and run. The actual rights and wrongs matter very little now.

My view is that Israel should never been created as a separate state. The wandering Jews of the post war era should maybe have been allowed to move to the area, but just as immigrants to the area. The previous Palastinian inhabitants will not accept Israel's exitence.

Israel are still occupying areas that do not belong to them. I know they claim to be occupying certain areas for security reasons, but settlement of these areas should not have been allowed.

Hamas is behaving in absurd manner. What is the point in punching the biggest boy in the playground in the face and then complaining when he flattens you. I think the whole idea of proportional response is a nonsense. Israel's attitude has always been one of deliberate disproportional response and why not. It is meant as a deterrent.

I think the US's support in the face of rocket attacks is reasonable.

Hamas has miscalculated badly. There is an upcoming election in Israel and the government needed to prove they were strong. Israel only had a small window before the new US president was sworn in. They had to attack strongly while Bush was still there. Hamas have shown themselves to be politically naive once again.

Once again there is a conflict between Jews and Muslems. This is unfortunate. My view has always been that I am generally anti-Israel and pro Jewish. I see them as two distinct things.

haystack wasn't Jesus born a jew 2000 or so years ago in Bethlehem, so whose land is it then? There is no solution to this land dispute, ignore it and it will go away.

the West Bank may well be thriving, but the Israeli settlements (most if not all) should not be there in the first place or should have been demolished or abandoned following the relevant UN resolution.

of course, if the "ordinary people" were allowed their voice to be properly heard, there would probably be no conflict at all, just as would have applied not so many years ago in Ireland.

Israel has ample technology to spy/locate any rocket launcher with satellites and then destroy then with pin point accuracy. By indescriminate destruction of Palestinain infrastrucure, incl Power stations and phone masks what they are doing is a deliberate attempt to fuel more terrorism around the world.

halifax
I think where jesus was born is of no interest. You would have to believe in god or think that where Jesus was born was of any significance today for that to matter.

Princess_Zubi
The rocket launches are not in fixed positions, so it is not worth much to identify ther location. I do think that they probably can locate them and my guess is that they were using that intellligence for their attacks by helicopter gunships prior to the later incursions. But it doesn't stop the firing from another position.

halifax .... i am afraid just ignoring this situation will not make it conveniently disappear, for the M/E in general has far too much strategic importance for all parties .... and therein i fear lies much of the problem

zubi .... if there is such pinpoint accuracy, how do you explain away the massive collateral damage???

Israel's population was formed by an influx of mainly Jews from Europe and America, who colonised part of Palestinian land.

Will the nomadic Palestinian tribes be allowed to return to the land now named as Israel?
If so will they have equal rights?

I somehow doubt it.

I don't believe that it is possible to demolish the State of Israel. It is "fait accompli" .

But I do wish both sides could develop a little mutual respect and possibly trust, which may lead to the benefit of the region and themselves.

I think Bush and Blair's decisions over the last 10 years were disastrous to possible peace in the ME.
t

cynic - zubi explains in its post. Israel is deliberately causing massive collateral damage to encourage more terrorism around the world. Deliberately.

Keep up mate. This is clearly the thread where the world's intellectuals gather for an in-depth and well reasoned discussion on the real issues. It is here where this problem is going to get solved once and for all. Proper like.

And Zubi and Fred will deservedly get nobel peace prizes. Two each.

;-)

Where are the resports of massive collateral damage coming from? The numbers killed inlcude the Hamas terrorists. Certainly at the start the majority were Hamas. Now it is anyone's guess.

Gausie, Glad you are contributing at your usual intellectual level.

I think "collateral" damage amounts to couldn't care a damn. I believe and International Agency worker was killed to-day. Israel won't allow reporters in to report on the action taking place. I suppose the other international agency workers were Hamas in disguise.

The unusual step by the Red Cross of condemning Israel's latest action is also misplaced.

Look, if there was no 'Global Terrorism', what would the US army do..?

cynic you state "but there is no doubt that Israel has made Gaza little better than a ghetto of the type initially imposed on the Jews in Warsaw. "

You should be ashamed of the comparison-450,000 people herded in to an area large enough to house maybe 70,000-starved to death-zero medical equipment,left to die in the open,before being rounded up by those Nazi bastards every day of every week to be transported in cattle trucks to a fate worse than anyone could have imagined in those concentration camps set up for one purpose only.

How you can compare the two is beyond me and smacks of a total and utter lack of knowledge. Your comments are based on tv reporting i am afraid.
Everyone seems to have forgotten who the perpertrators of 9/11 7/7 Glasgow airport ,Lockerbie-the list is endless were.

I cannot recall a pre emptive terror attack in recent times carried out by israel which is meant to kill and maim any civilian which is what Hamas, Hizbollah and the other Paelstinian terror groups plan and execute at will-including suicide bombings in Iraq,Bali ,Pakistanetc etc etc.


This is why the US and no Arab state has condemned Israel outright-apart from Syria.

These Arab states are more afraid of Islamic fundamentalism entering their society.
They are happy to let Israel do the dirty work and take the public beating.

SIVAD .... now you know why i inserted the word initially .... the polish ghettos were progressively shrunk and more and more restrictions placed on the inmates

"Israel's population was formed by an influx of mainly Jews from Europe and America, who colonised part of Palestinian land.

Will the nomadic Palestinian tribes be allowed to return to the land now named as Israel?
If so will they have equal rights?"

Perhaps Syria and Jordan should also return Palestinian Lands, which actually comprise a much larger part of such than the State Of Israel.

I can assume Fred that you will be lobbying the Embassies of both countries for restitution or does your argument only extend as far as Israel?

No, That maybe part of the settlement.

LoL - In your dreams.
Hypocritical as always.

2 lots of people living on the same land.......spells trouble !, ...let's hope that they can bring peace that means something.....no rockets being fired and no shelling, and keep to that promise. If Hamas or others fire rockets ...the Israelis will respond, it's as simple as that.....if there was long lasting peace you would have Jews investing in Gaza and the region would prosper !.

Unfortunately the problem remains religion and ideology. Hamas and Iran in particular are dedicated to the removal of the state of Israel. No truce or peaceful settlement will stop that. It is similar to North and South Ireland only much much worse. I doubt there will be a real settlement in any of our lifetimes.

Then this is depressing that no solution can be found !.

If you read the Bible you will know that the land called Palestine, Jews and Arab was living their.. it was not a Jews state neither the arab it was called Palestine.

2nd who crossified Jesus?.

Anyway I am not with any kind of killing or war I am not with Hamas or Israel or with any one who supports war, I am with the people who support peace, even I know that my words does not do any thing for stopping the war or the killing machine in both places as I know the killing from the devils hand whom we should fight.

But looking to the whole situation I know in fact if 1.5 Mil person lives in a large prison and can't move from a place to another I mean (61 Year in the same situation) in the same teritory not even they can not go to visit their immediate relatives who are few minutes away from them lives across the Israeli fence, also i know for sure that Palestinian people can't build or do any home remodeling or fixing to their own houses unless they got a the permit from Israel, and to get the permit they need to pay very high taxes even with that they do not get it.
I think this is some of the reason why it is dealt in this way,
Do you know that in each Palestinian house has at least one person killed or in the Israeli prison.

you said :-
28 deaths caused by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001. including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers
1,000+ people in Israel injured from rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001, including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers.

Do you know how many infants and women died in the past 10 days in Gasa only, will you please also count the arab people who got killed since 2001.
will you please put the full statistics for both sides not only one side (Israeli side only) for all the items mentioned above
Do you know that Gaza and other Palesinian teritory are big prison, Do you remeber the late Palesinian President Yaser Arafat when Israeli occupied him in his office for months untill his death.

Do you know that Palestine is an occupied teritories.

Do you know that since when the peace process started and what happend to it why till now why their is no peace oh come on for God sake.

PTh. I beginning to think your level of argument is at the same level as Ruth and Gausie.

Please look up the meaning of hypocrite and try and explain to me in which way it applies to me! I am just interested.

Or is your opinion based on ignorance as usual.

There will always be wars.

Fred,

Think about you response to the occupation of Palestine by Syria and especially Jordan. I'm not going to do all your work for you.

I can assure you I am far from ignorant. I don't even read the Sun :)

fahel - please note this is an english language bb - please try to get your posts translated into english before putting them up here. Maybe then whatever points you're trying to make will be intelligible to some of the readers here.

Fahal.your post looked very sensible to a cockney like me.love in a peaceful world is the message.Gausie.the cartoon man.nothing you ever say makes sense..I dont think you have a handle on humanity?and dont go quoting the pastwe live in the presentdidnt you know?
War = An eye for an eye = many blind innocent people..
When involved in a fighttheres no wrong or no rightnobody has the last say!OK!

Thats right Tobasco thank you, you said what I meant in few words, we are in 2009. both should find ways instead of fighting or killing.

Gausie, I sure if you tried a little harder even you would understand his posting.

PTholden, With a bit or help you could read the Sun, I still await your explanation of my hypocrisy.

In this conflict there are no winners -war is dreadful-people get hurt there must be a ceasefire which will protect both populations from each other.

can you trust Hamas? No can you trust Hizbollah? No. Solution-international peacekeeping forces.
Pull the US and Uk out of Iraq and deploy a small fraction of the troops on the borders in Southern Israel.

Once the communities start to prosper economically under this protection,both sides will realise that war is destructive and futile.

Let there be peace.Jews and Arabs are both Semitic and of the same family.

Let them behave as a family for the benefit of the region and of the world.

Israel has so much to offer Gaza -let the Gazans embrace what they have.

Maybe Gausie was feeling a little grumpy last night ;)

Respect to a former yellow jersey holder - and the fact that your perhaps not so good command of our language has not deterred you from writing your thoughts, fahel.

Frankly, I have far more trouble understanding Fred's posts.

Chocoyou know I rate your views very highly.but?Freds post is as obvious as the nose on your faceIm with him all the way..

Sorry for my bad English Lang. I am with Tabasco and Fred with whatever they says.

Fred started this thread on the other side too, tabs.
Would make more sense to have one thread for both, but he thought it would be interesting to compare responses, being of the analytical persuasion.

And you still haven't answered my questions, Fred.

For those who look at BBC4 news, there was an interesting summary of the middle east problems by Jeremy Greenstock. Should be repeated a few times this am.

Choc, Have not intention of answering you question? Concentrate on the arguments not the personalities.

My questions have nothing to do with your personality, Fred.

It is your reasoning that I'm trying to evaluate.
Over the years you have posted on this board - and some of the grave humour content of the bits I catch has made me chuckle - I gather the impression now that your arguments are becoming more irrational.

I asked you about your profession, because I had some recollection of you saying, with some detail, that you'd practised pyschotherapy. Did you not propound a theory of common and personal reality?

Choci, you remind me of a puppy I had. It kept snapping at my ankles until it grew up. Its behaviour was minor irritant only.

I think the views I have advanced which are reality bound.

Perhaps, my opinion is of no account, but is does appear in line with the United Nations present views. (But I suppose when their opinions differ from yours, their opinions are inconsequential or irrational.)

I suggest you find the recent interview of Jeremy Greenstock on BBC news. Below is a synopsis.
A UN Security Council resolution has called for an immediate ceasefire, access for aid workers and a lasting solution to the conflict, but the Israeli government has rejected it.
Speaking to BBC News, the former UK ambassador to the UN, Sir Jeremy Greenstock, said he hoped Israel would stop military operations soon.
"I think it's a good resolution and needs to be implemented but the Israeli army needs to take decisions on the ground under the Israeli government to implement that resolution," he said.
"The tragedy is this military action was never necessary. There has to be a political route out of the trouble."

Again what I find interesting on some of these threads, is who creeps out of the woodwork and how they group together like pack dogs..
Generally, they seem to resort to personal abuse, hoping it diverts from the main argument.

I wonder why?


Let me repeat once more:

Murder and carnage is being carried out in the name of defence.

Some appear to want to tell the bullied to stop it, but allow the bullies to continue!

How much world condemnation does the Israeli government need.

At the UN, even America is backing off in its support of Israels action.

The problem with spending time in the company of nutters is that it's only a matter of time before their behaviour rubs off. I used to have a friend who was a psychiatric nurse. She was as crazy as a box of frogs.

Fred - you're posting the same nonsense on both threads now. Why?

I may as well do the same:-


Martini - 09 Jan 2009 13:03 - 85 of 106
Dear o dear Fred the last time I saw you (with MG in tow bless him) I seem to remember opening up the conversation with "Ruth has sent me to give you a slapping"

I fear if I ever make another "Brum meet" I may have to give you a slapping for the whole BB - and I am not sure you are physically up to that!

Come to think of it neither am I!

So please Fed stop being a plonker and save us both some grief.

Fred1new - 09 Jan 2009 13:15 - 86 of 106
Martini, I think my response to you was "let me know when you start and I will finish it".

Personal abuse is not an argument.

But views of United Nations don't seem pertinent to the present problems.

Murder and carnage is being carried out in the name of defence.

Tell the bullied to stop it, but allow the bullies to continue!

How much world condemnation does the Israeli government need.

Even America is backing off at the UN.

Crazy.

Gausie - 09 Jan 2009 13:22 - 87 of 106
Fred

I think Israel's response to the threat of rocket attacks was: "let me know when you start and I will finish it"

Your double standards are hilarious.

ISRAEL SHOULD BE MOVED TO THE USA.

i am sure it is no coincidence that Israel's invasion was timed to coincide with the last days of Bush's admin ..... true to form, Bush came out with strong support, no doubt as well-pressured by the Jewish lobby (cabal would be more apposite for all sorts of good reasons!) in NY ...... i suspect Obama will be less accomodating

Fred.decent people know what you are talking aboutbut I am afraid its lost on the others.funny enough I had a meeting and done some business with a guy in Hatton Garden last year funny enough some at the meeting talked rather similar to some on here.mind you the guy I personally done business with was a real diamond geezer!

Gausie,

Distraction from the argument once again!

I have never been a pacifist, nor state that I was. However, I would prefer non-violent means of resolving confrontation or arguments. But sometimes the use of force is necessary. However, disproportionate force is never justifiable in the eyes of the majority. That is why world public opinion is against Israel at the moment.

If you feel I am so out of touch, please relate to Greenstocks Argument or the following which seems to summarise the problem

Another interesting comment is below. (Perhaps, he again is irrational.)

09/01/2009 09:13 JOHANNESBURG, Jan 9 (AFP)
Middle East conflict shows need for UN reform: S.Africa
South African President Kgalema Motlanthe said Friday that the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has underscored the urgent need to reform the United Nations.
"I agree that the UN, and the UN Security Council in particular, is in need of urgent reform in order to become more representative of the world's population," he said in an interview in the Mail and Guardian newspaper.
He said that the United Nations was not implementing its original mandate to give equal treatment and protection to all the countries.
"The problem is that if a country has powerful friends on the Security Council, they can sometimes act with impunity," Motlanthe said.
"All you have to do is listen to the minister of foreign affairs or defence of Israel to know that you are dealing with people who believe they can cock a snook with impunity."
Motlanthe said the veto powers enjoyed by the five permanent members of the Security Council also promoted selfish interests "which is contrary to the collective and principled mandate of the United Nations."
His remarks were published after the UN Security Council voted late Thursday to call for an "immediate, durable" ceasefire in the Gaza Strip leading to a full withdrawal of Israeli troops.
The United States, Israel's strongest ally on the council, abstained from the vote.
Murder and carnage is being carried out in the name of defence.

====================================


From listening to the spokesmen of many countries of the world the overall opinion is still as below.

Murder and carnage is being carried out in the name of defence.


It also seems that even the United States can no longer support Israels present actions.

cynic
Then Hamas should have had the policical sense to realise that israel would hit back hard while Bush was there and waited for a few weeks.

i suspect Israel were intent on the action anyway and would have found an excuse ...... common sense and compromise in M/E is a rare commodity, just as it is in India/Pakistan and the Balkans

Fred

Re "Distraction from argument" - what exactly is your argument?

Perhaps you can set it out clearly - you've been banging on about all sorts of different topics, and as soon as the inevitable happens and each argument is destroyed you move onto something different.

I think you're trying to say that you abhor the violence and destruction in the middle east and it should stop immediately. If that's it then I expect everyone here would agree with you. I certainly would. But that's all violence - the invasion *AND* the rockets. If the rockets were to be given up peaceably then that would be an end to the crisis - there is no question that Israel would immediately withdraw. However, Hamas are not giving up any rockets, and so the job the Israelis are doing must be finished to meet the stated objective - ie peace for all. Until the next time.

By arguing in favoor of one side or the other only helps to perpetuate the argument, as we said before ignore them and when the money runs out an ageement will be achieved.

and the lion shall lie down with the lamb!

cynic are you quoting from somewhere?

Yes, I wish for a non-violent settlement in the Middle East. One, which is fair to both sides.

If Hamas gives up its Rockets, will Israel give up it Nuclear Weapons and its rockets?

Will they adhere to the various United Nations mandates, which they have ignored over the last 20-30 years?

Will they allow a Palestinian to become self-governing viable state with free borders and access to the Med?

Will they restore land confiscated from the Palestinians?

Will it pay for the restoration of the infrastructure, which it has destroyed in Gaza?


My feelings are the Hamas rockets into Israel are an attempt to get the attention of the world to the ongoing abuses by Israel. I dont condone the actions but I understand the motivation and the frustration that the Palestinians have.

These are some of the points, which are being ignored.


I dont have any easy solution to the problem, but the present actions of Israel will not lead to a resolution, only prolong the trouble.

Just one more point Gauzie, the job must be finished. That seems to me to be the mind set of Hitler after Stalingrad.

it's actually a misquotation from Isaiah, but it's the one everyone knows - wrongly!

Martini

Bring me to the next Birmingham meet.

G

Agree with Fred's last post...

If there is NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE......

Agree with Fred's last post...

If there is NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE...... I wonder when Israel will realise this, or if they want to !!

Does he owe me a pint? Can't remember. If so I will try and be there.

Why would Israel give up it's nuclear weapons? Why should Isreal give up its nuclear weapons?

Why shouldn't Iran, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Libya develop Nuclear weapons etc.. Are these countries less civilised than Israel or America?

Is Israel the new super nation?

Fred1new ....would you like to see those countries all have the atomic bomb ? There are far too many countries with that capability......and the risks that the unthinkable could happen increases, let's be fair and say that those countries do not need such a burden and a burden it would become in the hands of unstable and unreliable governments !, if Hamas stop firing rockets and promise some peace then the madness will stop and the Israelis might be more inclined to help their present foes !.

RF. No I would prefer a world without Nuclear Weapons. Unlikely to ever occur. But I have never understood, why the big boys should have catapults and I couldn't.

This represents to me racial or even religious superiority, which is part of the problem in the Middle East and many other places. It is an arrogant position.

This represents to me racial or even religious superiority, which is part of the problem in the Middle East and many other places.

that is a ridiculous statement ..... that said, knowledge can never be unlearnt, so i guess the logic is along the lines of trying to shut Pandora's Box .... of course, there is a very real logic and fear that an unstable country (iran? pakistan? north korea?) is all too likely to cause the rest of the world to reap the whirlwind that "they" sowed in a moment of madness

Well, only country to have used nuclear weapons has been America. They are also the only ones to have threatened their use again (in recent times). So they should be top of list when talking about 'unstable countries'.

lol - here we go. Wondered when the anti-american slogans would start to be wheeled out.

This thread is not about the current conflict at all. It's the standard islamic fundamentalist anti west nonsense that we see all the time.

Any other flags you fancy burning whilst you're at it Princess_zubi?

HI JUST LIKE TO SAY(THAT ISRAEL AND THE U.S.A ARE DEMOCRACTIC THE REST OF THE LOT ARE NOT?? IN FACT ISRAEL IS MORE DEMOCRATIC THAN THE U.K??

Gausie are you following the news in the papers, journals TV. Radio broadcasting Over seas broadcasts, Internet information services etc.

The general opinion seems to differ from yours.

Maybe, You are obtaining your information from your own propaganda services of disinformation.

I thought better of both of you.

This represents to me racial or even religious superiority, which is part of the problem in the Middle East and many other places. It is an arrogant position.

My word, what a totally idiotic comment. Why do you start these threads Fred with your bigoted one sided views only to eventually make an utter fool of yourself?
You unravel everytime.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NGWlSMFNRag

Oh ffs guys calm down , Israelies and Palestinians will be dancing in the streets hand in hand long before we get a "ceasefire" on here if you don't all chill out.


xxx

And don't start about burning flags after what you told me Gausie :-)

Welsh flags don't count.

B*llox :-)

Fred1new.....for a start : 2 threads...ridiculous, it makes obvious sense that not everybody must be allowed to develop the atomic bomb, if that happens we are heading for a disaster..."you cannot give small boys guns to play with !", and as long as Hamas want to destroy Israel and use force then there will always be trouble, and even though the Israeli forces seem to be missing targets and hitting civilian areas they have no right to moan about them fighting back !.

Pholden, Why don't you read what is written, then engage you brain and think of its content before you respond. Your position seems to me that of an unreasoning zealot. I was making an observation and have no allegiance to either party in the present Middle East conflict.

I am not alone in thinking that many of the problems in international politics is due to the patronising positions taken by the present wealthier nations in regard to the smaller and poorer nations.

These countries are often recognisable and supported by racial or religious aspects of those societies as well as geographical. The polarisation of the different groups is often around a racial or religious symbol. As an example, look at the break up of old Yugoslavia, where the genetic base of the country was similar in all areas and the majority of the population were Agnostic. Here politicians, manipulated the people of that country to group ethnically around various totem poles ie Catholic, Orthodox or Moslem. The Moslems were sometimes only recognisable by the variation of surnames, from the other groups. Large numbers each of these groups were integrated by marriage previous to this debacle. I wont go into the political power bases of the various groups. The fragmentation of old Yugoslavia as outcome of the recent war has been of little value to the majority of the people of that country.

Returning to the Middle East.
It is interesting that at the moment that is Israel, previously with the protection of America, continues to try to dictate to the Palestinians what they should do, while not respecting the mandates of the United Nations when applied to themselves. If they start negotiating as equals with mutual respect, it maybe possible to have a lasting peace, which would be beneficial to the Israeli and Palestinian people.

From their own history, the Israel should realise that you cant wipe out or subject another race by primitive violent action. The grievances and problems are there to be resolved.

The majority of the world, is condemning Israel for its disproportionate use of force.

The majority of the humanitarian aid bodies are condemning Israels actions.

If Israel faces up to accepting the United Nations mandates and carries out necessary steps to instigate them, then it is probable that there will be a peace in this area.

The chant of "Hamas" has be firing rockets into Israel for 8years has a certain truth. Perhaps, if the Israelis had negotiated positively and honestly and applied the appropriate mandates during this the 8year period, the situation may not have deteriorated to the present state of affairs.

why do we need two threads on this same subject?

Just for you cynic, Gives you two chances to get it right! 8-)

I have copied this reference again, just in case some have missed. I am glad I am not as isolated in my views as suggested.

Thanks for drawing my attention to it!

It is a reasonable assessment. Perhaps even for Gausie

Eyes in the back of your head.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2008/historical-amnesia-gaza-p1.php