I am someone now into their 40th year, and feel we are losing it in this country. 1 Million reasons why. But i think our no1 failure is for some of us (not all, some are brilliant) have lost the ability to work hard and work properly, to many excuses.

Did anyone hear the very sad story on radio 5 live on J. Derbershire show this morning on the events that followed his son being killed in the Eygption bombings at sharm el shiek last year. The foriegn office and government ministers should hang their heads in shame.

An elederly relevative has at to sell her home for full time care due to alzheimer's. The first 2 homes wanted her out within 2 days because they could not cope even though they were being paid 500 quid a week. This could be absolutely any of us reading this now in the future. Is this the way we treat our own in Great Britain??? What do these homes want to do for 500 quid a week.

If we are great please explain why!! Would love to hear your stories why you think/know, like me, we are going down the pan.

waste of time this thread the real reasons why this countrys going to pot, we are not allowed to say in case it upsets someone !!

well,, if you are going to say its all the illegal immigrants fault, im sure many of us will give a good argument against that. but i am sure you could find ways of saying things without being to controversial. or just be like blinger and just say what you think anyway.

No, it's no longer great and will carry on getting worse until some law and order is brought back into the country.

And that's just for starters.

You only have to look on the side of the roads you travel, I bet they are covered in rubbish.
And that is exactly what this country is becoming.
I despair!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Depends on peoples definition of the word "Great".

Also when exactly were we ever Great?

Perhaps the word Great Is not the right word to use.

When were we great: -
when we had bobbies on the beat
when we had matron nurses that kept hospitals spotless
when we could leave our front doors open
when we had lots of recreational grounds (particularly schools) and parkies to look after parks.
when the elderly were well looked after in this country
when we won the world cup
when people earned a fair living from a fair days work
when people didnt throw rubbish out of their car windows
when people worked a little bit of overtime (for no pay) if something needed doing
when youths respected our teachers, elderly and emergency services
when a fight was a fair fight (and no weopens)
when everybody wasnt try to rip us off (mechanics, builders bankers, insurances etc)
when we didnt have to press our phone number buttons a thousand times before we get through
when my peace wasnt distrubed every 5 minutes by somebody try to sell me something at the door or on the phone
when it used to cost a fiver to watch birmingahm city (and not 35 quid to be completely outplayed by west brom)
when i didnt have to pick up junk mail to put in the recycling box just for it all to come flying through the door again.

still lots more to come, lol.

Kivver,
You know how I love a debate!!!
Your list of reasons above. Does it belong to a time when summers were long and hot and every Christmas was white?
That time never existed, except in our dewey eyed reminiscences.
I agree that the country is a bit on the crap side at the moment, but so is the world. I am of the opinion (and you probably already know this) that Great Britain started its downward trend towards crapism when we suddenly became ashamed of our glorious history, the wonderful things we gave the world and our true sense of being world leaders.
From losing this marvellous heritage we have lost what it means to be British, to the point where we view the British isles as a piece of slightly damp real estate instead of our Mother land.
When we remove the shame attatched in our minds to being British and restore a sense of pride to our nationality we will again become Great.
We have done this to ourselves BTW. The countries who we feel most ashamed towards still revere us as a mighty and just nation. It is often their leaders who deride us to make political capital, and our leaders who are fearful of the noisy minority who find shame in our past.
Alan

Very funny Kivver. Our greatest triumph was winning the war, unfortunately, we suffered economically for this success, as America rewarded Germany and Japan with massive loans, we got nothing. America was not stupid and realised it could take advantage of our situation to steal more of our empire.

Ironically, the upper echelons of the stock market world have led to this unfairness in British society where the chief execs and analysts and brokers get paid ridiculously for what exactly?
As soon as any govt talks about capping the pay of chief execs they get labelled as anti-business and lambasted in the press.

As for the MRSA in hospitals which is a recent phenomenon, that basically occurred because the NHS cleaning contracts were tendered out to private companies whereas before it was handled by each ward and the matron enforced it vigorously. People assume that PPI is the way to go, but what's the point of PPI if future generations are going to be burdened by continually paying a mortgage for schools etc, if the government can't afford to build more hospitals and schools then it shouldn't bother until it has the money. You can see why PPI is attractive to them, they don't have to pay.

Britain was also rather silly in giving the oil companies (mainly American again) very favourable corporate tax rates for north sea oil. The most favourable in the developed world I believe. Britain did not have to do this, it could have driven a harder bargain. Look at Norway, Norway did not give in to American pressure in the seventies and did it through Statoil a nationalised company as did Saudi Arabia. Britain has also irrepariably damaged the fields by taking the oil out so quickly under American pressure in the seventies after the mid east oil crisis; it is no coincidence that Dennis Thatcher had oil interests himself. But why let other companies rip off britain's resources, in business I thought you're supposed to drive the best bargain for your customers, so the government should have insisted on getting the most tax it could for its citizens. They seemed to let the principle of low taxation override the wealth of the country.

al - all the things i listed were true but admit it may not of have been country wide at all times. I partly see what you mean but to mind we have to many people who talk the talk (politians, councilours, managers, teachers, cops, bank managers, newspaper editors etc etc) but cant walk the walk. We are turning into a nation of talkers/blaggers and not doers. Right im off to become a millionaire through share dealing!!

This has been reported on a lot recently on Newsnight Scotland, where there has been shock from the anchormen that the government so blasely ripped off Britain with these locked in tax agreements. At the time the government was on the verge of going bankrupt I believe so they were happy to sell off the contracts for peanuts. Newsnight Scotland referred to it as criminal on the part of the government and I'm inclined to agree, you do not give away your main resources when the oil price is low, averaging 10$ a barrel, you are under no obligation to keep the AMericans happy. The recent furore (largely press driven) over the windfall tax is a nonsense, oil exploration is at an all time high with smaller companies taking over the more mature fields, and the oil price is only going to rise so the government could increase tax by a whack and it would still not put off the companies because they'd be making large profits.

An unfortunate side effect to this would be the capitalist response of raising the prices of oil based products.
Any Oil company would look for any opportunity to do this and enhance its profits, and the government upping taxes makes for an easy target.
The government up the tax, the oil companies up the price of petrol and point the finger very squarely at the Chancellor saying its all his fault.
The result is the M1 full of tractors and lorry drivers leading a revolt. The media does not care about the truth of a situation, it cares only for selling papers and the headline saying "Petrol up again because Brown is bankrupt" sells more papers than the one saying "Petrol up because someone made a mess of it 35 years ago and we are now claiming our just rewards".
The people need someone to blame and shout at now, not historically and the media will supply that enthusiastically.
Alan

Think about the billions that we have poured into the health service.... how has it improved i ask myself????? i recently spent some time in a nhs hospital abroad (euro holiday resort) and the service, help, quality of doctors, cleaniness, in a country where they could hardly understand me was unbelievable, the after care service since i have been back is nothing short of a joke. i have always supported the nhs, now i would be glad to see the back of it.

We invented the great game of football and have great team in Aston Villa!!
Good to see a Bluenose on the board Kivver.

If you've got a great team in Aston Villa, how come David O'Leary hasn't found it yet???
Alan ;-)

nice one doughboy, i am pretty sure we're going down after some diabolical displays this season (oparticularly the one against WBA, Melciott you couldnt kick a barn door), but the one saving grace the record of results between bcfc and avfc in the short time we have been in the premiership, lol. sad i know.

just a few responses

When were we great: -
when we had bobbies on the beat (institutional racism, West Midlands coppers...)
when we had matron nurses that kept hospitals spotless (go along with that one but agree with someone above re contracting out)
when we could leave our front doors open (lol Victorian britain was crime ridden; as for binge drinkers what about Hogarth's gin allleys?)
when we had lots of recreational grounds (particularly schools) and parkies to look after parks.(go along there but who started the whole notion of selling off the silver?)
when the elderly were well looked after in this country (it starts at home as in other cultures)
when we won the world cup (the biggest lie of them all - internationally we have won sweet FA)
when people earned a fair living from a fair days work
when people didnt throw rubbish out of their car windows (at the height of Empire there was shit in the streets of London)
when people worked a little bit of overtime (for no pay) if something needed doing (there are legions of staff intimidated by macho managers as well as countless teachers/doctors who give of their time)
when youths respected our teachers, elderly and emergency services (ok but authority has to earn respect - the increasing democratisation and opening up of society leads to a more informed electorate ready to question - perhaps the pendulum has swung too far)
when a fight was a fair fight (and no weopens) (Victorian London again)
when everybody wasnt try to rip us off (mechanics, builders bankers, insurances etc) (LOL twas ever thus -read Volpone)
when it used to cost a fiver to watch birmingahm city (and not 35 quid to be completely outplayed by west brom) (the gentrification of soccer has also brought its benefits)

Plus ca change

There's a really apt latin saying for this that means "the times change and we change with the times" but I'm a thick Yorkshireman who can't remember it. Perhaps someone with a little more breeding could help me out here.
Alan

Geez oh, A few posts in and the Americans are getting the blame. Without the fact they sent 600,000 troops to Europe to save us we would have all starved to death if they hadn't fed us for much of the war.

kivver, "lost the ability to work hard and work properly". How very true ...

We need ... amongst other things, starting from ourselves.


Pride without arrogance.

Courage without aggression.

Sense of fairness for others and for ourselves.

"Is Great Britain still great "

No, thread over!

But seriously, I travel a lot now and I am amazed at how insular and behind the times the UK feels when I arrive back on these shores.

Great Britains not that bad guys,
Tonker

some interesting replies, zscrooge i thought i was the p*ssed off bitter one, lol. ax - spot on,
al - im a thick brummie so know dont the latin.
scrip - again spot on, i remember going to spain in my early 20's and couldnt believe i could get a drink at any time during the night, twenty five years later and i can now do it britain even though i dont feel like doing it anymore.

One of my deepest regrets in life is in helping the undeserving - professionally and otherwise. All those exploited and stolen efforts, sacrifices, time and goodwill could have been spend on helping the genuinely deserving who are often trying very hard not to trouble others and not complaining.

So, be careful out there. But double the efforts to help the good guys. UK will be better for it.

axdpc - 13 Mar 2006 19:51 - 20 of 24
kivver, "lost the ability to work hard and work properly". How very true ...


How hard do day traders and other city types work? Big fat bonuses for what exactly?

zscrooge, not sure about "city types with big fat bonuses" but IMHO independent day traders, risking their own money, make a far more honest living than some who draws a steady salary with very little risk and little work!

And some people may have decided to start working for themselves because they are fed up with others, who had not partake in fair efforts and risks, insisting and scheming on sharing in the fruits of their hard work.

A more appropriate description than kivver's "lost the ability to work hard and work properly" would be "never had and never will have the intention to work hard and work properly.".

...

Only IMHO :-)

axdpc,
Agree with that last bit. I still argue that it all comes down to pride.
As a nation we have no pride in our heritage, no pride in our nationality, our locale, our jobs and ultimately in ourselves. We have been browbeaten into being apologetic souls, and constantly apologising and excusing leads to poor self value and self worth.
I am not asking for everyone to be massive egocentrics, but we have a right to be loud and proud of everything we are and everything we did.
yes its Tory rhetoric of the worst kind, to ask for a return to the values that made us Great, but we are an extremely moderate nation, and leading the world once again with that kind of moderation would not be a bad thing.
Examples stem from the top, and the top of our tree at the moment is full of leaders who have to make vacuous promises and half cocked attempts at policy in order not to offend the media. While this makes them appear shirkers and shysters, the nation will see this attitude as a route to personal success.
Pride is the missing ingredient.
Rambling, but I hope you catch my drift.
Alan

One in four people in work in the UK are employed by the public sector. One issue you have in the Uk at the moment is that those in the private sector who have no security are being asked to prop up a massive spending splurge on the uneconomical and unproductive jobs for life and massive pension rights public sector.

Alan, yes, I got the drift very well.

In most areas, we have sheep who follow bosses who set potent examples of
"Do as I say, not as I do, or else ...".

Extra efforts to "love thy neighbour" and help a few good men/women sounds like an excellent idea.

who were/are the best cleaners in nhs hospitals, the old direct workers or the new private contract cleaning firms.

Who was best, the railway system or new more private system??? ps i dont know the answers, do you????

Depends on your measurement of "best".
If by best you mean the job done to a reasonable standard at minimum cost then private, as it does not have the shackles of an overly corrupt beaurocracy hanging over it.
If by best you mean the job done to a high standard regardless of cost then the old systems.
However most people chase the impossible dream of a perfect job at almost no cost. While ever we pursue the impossible, and bleat at every 1p on tax, we will have a cheap job done.
Remember the old saying. I can do it quickly, do it well or do it cheaply. Which one of those don't you want?
Alan

To add another side to the debate.

Has the universal suffrage outlived its usefulness?

did anybody see the hidden cameras on telly where they filmed a contract cleaning team in the hospital. He cleaned a toilet with a toilet brush then cleaned the sink with it.

Just five experiences this month to show GB can still be great

- Boiler service man apologizing for arriving 2-3 minutes outside the half hour window.
- Taxi driver opening the door and carry bags for an elderly to her house.
- School children saying good morning.
- Shops give the correct change.
- A few litter that appears after rubbish collection soon disappeared.
...

kivver (ref #33).

Just another symptom of how one is judged and treated by one's wealth rather than how that wealth was obtained and what one does.

55011, not outlived but suffering from neglect and damaged by mission-creep.

axdpc - 14 Mar 2006 13:57 - 26 of 35
zscrooge, not sure about "city types with big fat bonuses" but IMHO independent day traders, risking their own money, make a far more honest living than some who draws a steady salary with very little risk and little work!


It's a tough life risking one's own money! Day traders are little more than upmarket gamblers, a sort of middle class bingo, with little interest or care in the companies they deal with and no interest in wealth creation other than their own. It's tough reading those charts, shuffling money around electronically...etc etc

If Labour want to sort out the mess with MRSA in hospitals why don't they just stop the tendoring out and have it done in house. They've got the majority. Are they scared of the reaction by the right wing press, being labelled anti-business, and would the hospital staff need more money, less time spent doing something else to have the time to do the cleaning?

zscrooge, by a broader definition, some people can argue that all finanical institutions and financial related activities (accountancy, lotteries, insurance etc) are not welath creatiing ... Financial trading is probably fairly closely ranked to gambling along side
horse racing and buying lottery tickets. All of which, IMHO ranked about average/mid-point in honesty and honourability. Look around one's own working environment and I am sure you can spot a few people, some may sit in plush offices by themselves and others otherwise, who are going for an easy and very profitable ride at the expense and sweat of others. Or people knowingly selling shoddy goods and services?? How about hose conning people out of their savings?? It is far more honourable to win on the lottery.

It is unpleasant, unproductively and dangerous to work with, work for or employ those who wants a fair day's pay but does not want to do a fair day's work.

Sinttserf, last week, Herald reported on some extra 200+M for NHS consultants but none for the patients. The House of Parlianebts cleaners had to fight for a year(?) to get an extra 1 or so an hour increase.

OK, it is on the front page of The Herald for Thursday March 9.
"Extra cost of consultants' pay: 235m. Extra benefit to patients: nil" (for Scotland)
"Auditor reveals total bill is nearly four times the orignal estimate."
...

So perhaps cleaners didn't get a rise, or ot a rise at the expense of patient care???
A bit of complicated issue.

Been reading a book on corporate frauds and it is funny how, by comparison, some CEOs and directors felt they need million dollar salary AND multi-million (sometimes hundreds of millions) in incentives, options, performance bonuses and rewards to be motivated.
If it is true, then I don't think many cleaner can be motivated by the minimum wage or an extra or two per hour.

I wonder whether executives and politicians will find it easy and stress-free if they have to clean other people's toilets for several hours a day, 5 days a week ...

59% of new money for the NHS went on wages, 15% on medicine, Hmm.

... and then there is the future cost of pensions. 26% on running costs and operations.
59% may be OK if, through prevention, the population is getting healthier and need less medications. The total pharma turnover might be an interesting guide.

I am pessimistic about my optimism ...

Dunno what you lot are on about. We've never had it so good!!

But don't worry you doomsters. With the arrival of peak oil and the world soon to go ex-growth, you will be able to wallow in your self pity.

rgrds
gk

Tony Blair & co should be charged with treason for the way they have swarmed this country with people coming hear with no checks on their backgrounds, we have how own scum here without importing more . we have been invaded by rapists and gangsters, just read the newspapers ect: convicted murders & rapists let into our [ thats a joke ] country to rape and kill.

i wondered how long it would be before all the illigal immigrants got the blame? but if you feel the need to feel superior to someone then fair play to you. Suprised to hear to that no british people ever do anything wrong. Peter Sutcliffe, the black panther, football supporters (not all), millions of beer swilling people scraping, fighting, stabbing and shooting when the pubs close, british polititians, british soldiers (one sas bloke has just resiegned on principle) the foriegn office cant do no wrong.

I said ,we have how own scum here without importing more, yes iam superior to rapists and murders are you. the SAS bloke was talking about the Americans. try reading my post again .

so you do think all people coming into this country are rapsits and murders then.???No the sas bloke was british and resiegned because he didnt agree with yanks AND brits actions in iraq. But due to the great dignity of this bloke he didnt really want to say all the things in public. He keeps his thoughts and views for his superiors.

Do some research on how the brits were treated in collecting their dead relatives after the sharma ei sheik bomb. How long did it take, how much did it cost, how much help did they receive, why have they received lots of letters from different members of the cabinet etc etc.

Did i say all ? are you saying there is not a very large percentage filling how prisons ? The SAS man was talking about the American troops not the british and also said the war was not legal. Why you have bought up the subject of sharma ei sheik i don't know.

used it in my opening statement, sad after hearing it on the radio, if that this is the best british people/workers/froeign office can do for british people in such sad circumstances then thats why i fear for the future of this country. read the opening post. nothing to do with foriegners coming into the country.

On that note living in a big city like bham, if i want summat to eat late in the evening uauallly has to be a pizza, curry or a chinese, most chip shops near me now closing early. Asians working late into the nights in shops, garages and having to put with all types of abuse for providing us with a service.

i listened to the sas soldier myself on the radio 5 its not hearsay, i heard him myself.

With regard to the consultants's pay increase. Unfortunately, the government probably thinks cleaners are much more dispensable than consultants. How can it get its beloved waiting times down if it doesn't have enough consultants. Although, a consultant did write to the herald I think last week and say that before they had been working 33% extra hours a week for free and are call, so now all thepay increase is doing is letting them be paid when previously they were unpaid.

I'm very concerned about Essex. There are numerous tales of thick people getting paid a fortune for commuting into the city, more during the eighties perhaps, with opportunities for school leavers. The eighties were good for the south east but they weren't very good for the rest of the countries, but did the people in the south east care? No, they just kept voting selfishly for their own self-interest! If Scotland had been equally selfish and voted SNP Britain would have gone bankrupt, Thatcher wouldn't have been able to carry out her "reforms". Fortunately for Britain we weren't selfish! Scotland would have become one of the richest countries in the world but instead we're the only country to have discovered oil and got poorer. How dare the tories bite the hand that fed them by taking our oil and then shutting down our industries. We've learnt our lesson, it'll never happen again!

Basically, the problem is that during the eighties the government decided to solely reward those jobs which were wealth producing, so the public services were not included, hence a feeling of worthlessness, low self-esteem and consequent low motivation. And then you get all this nonsense about the barnett formula giving too much to Scotland and london subsidising the rest of Britain. As a friend who works in the oil industry said to me, it's distorted nonsense. Labour created devolution because it needed to appease the nationalists and it cannot afford to lose Scotland or else it loses power in Britain for good. The tories on the other hand have the dilemna between breaking up Britain, losing the oil money, against being in power in government in perpetuity.

Where did the oil money go?? Norway managed to create a fund of 180 billion pounds where they earn more on interest each year than they do on current oil reciepts. There was no need to just cut taxes they could have kept school playing fields and increased public sector spending too. They were too ideologically driven. There is also a snobbishness in Britain towards unskilled work, hence cleaners, but these jobs are much harder physically than many "professional" jobs yet looked down upon. In America trades are not looked down upon, and an American recently told me that she's just got a Masters here but she's going back to Hawaii to do bar work because in tips alone she can get 250 $ a week. She said it's not treated like it is in Britain.

England is awful, Scotland is great. End of.

see you at the world cup grajul!

Only IMHO,

Greatness starts to fade when future actions are justified by past results.

Close to my opinion that greatness starts to fade when past actions are viewed by modern standards and apologists are justified.
Alan

We're in league with the most right wing and corrupt, both financially amd morally, American government for decades. One wonders whether or even how far that corruption has pervaded into UK! Try todays article from the Financial Times as a taster ;


Jacob Weisberg: A White House caught red-handed
By Jacob Weisberg
Published: March 15 2006 20:23 | Last updated: March 15 2006 20:23

Last week, the magazine I edit broke the news that Claude Allen, until recently the White House chief domestic policy adviser, was arrested for theft in the suburbs of Washington. The US president has expressed his shock and disappointment. If the allegations are true, how could one of his top aides, a devout Christian who passed a series of Federal Bureau of Investigation background checks, have been a common thief? But the more we hear about what Mr Allen is accused of, the less it sounds like kleptomania and the more it sounds like an application of Bush economic policy.

Mr Allens alleged scam was something called return fraud. According to the police, he would purchase a home-theatre system or a computer printer from a department store and put it in the trunk of his car. Then he would come back to the same store with his sales receipt, pull an identical item off the shelf and take it to the return desk for a refund. Using this technique, a brazen perpetrator pays for the item once, but derives value from it twice he gets his money back and keeps the merchandise. Mr Allen is alleged to have stolen more than $5,000 over the past year in this way. His lawyer has described the incidents as a series of misunderstandings and Mr Allen denies any wrongdoing.

As a point of comparison, consider the presidents Social Security proposal, which died in Congress last year. George W. Bush wanted to set up a system of private retirement accounts for future retirees. This would have required him to divert $1,000bn or so from the Social Security Trust Fund, which pays for benefits for current and future retirees. Since Mr Bush did not propose to reduce benefits, how was he going to make up the difference? By sauntering to the customer service desk and asking for his money back. In this case, the receipt was a bogus projection that the retirement funds invested in the stock market would grow so quickly that everyone would come out ahead. The main difference between Mr Allens alleged scam and Mr Bushs attempted one is scale.

Mr Allens former colleagues in the West Wing are now trying to slip more tax cuts out of the door without stopping at the cash register. Their trick is to claim that with the managers special, tax cuts are on sale for nothing. You cut taxes and the tax revenues increase, Mr Bush said last month. In other words, tax cuts will mean more money for the Treasury, not less. There is, of course, no economic support for the concept that tax cuts are cost-free, just as there are no shops where customers are encouraged to walk past the checkout without paying. Mr Bushs tax- avoidance scam is based on the truism that government revenues almost always rise in nominal terms because of inflation, population growth and gross domestic product growth. Even if Congress cuts taxes, government is likely to take in more in 2007 than in 2006 it just will not take in as much more as it would have otherwise.

Another scam the president and his budget cronies favour is price-tag swapping. Here Mr Bush picks out a high-priced item sudh as a fat package of lamp chops or the Iraq war. When the security camera is pointed elsewhere, he peels off the $200bn price tag and attaches a lower one removed from educational reform or something in the congressional pork aisle. Should a subordinate threaten to speak to security, the ringleader deals with the problem Tony Soprano-style. For instance, when the governments chief Medicare actuary came up with a too-high price tag of $551bn for Mr Bushs Medicare prescription drug bill, members of the presidents gang who preferred an estimate closer to $400bn over 10 years made him an offer he could not refuse. Only after sceptical Republican legislators fell into line and the bill passed did it emerge that the accountant, Richard Foster, had been threatened with the sack if he revealed the higher figure.

Presidents set a moral example, and given the message Mr Bush has been sending, it is no surprise that the problem of inventory shrinkage has spread to Congress as well. For example, Republicans in the Senate recently proposed a novel way to pay for extending Mr Bushs tax cut on investment income, which will otherwise expire in 2009. They want to allow the wealthy and not just the middle class to convert their private retirement accounts to a type that is not taxed when funds are withdrawn at retirement. This would produce a temporary revenue boost, because taxes are due on the initial conversion, but would be a big money-loser for government in the long-run. With this swindle paying for one tax cut for the rich with another tax cut for the rich Bushonomics has reached its larcenous apogee.

So, if it turns out that the charges are true, where might Mr Allen have learnt that you can get the things you want without paying for them? Let us just say it was not at church.

Fascinating programme on Wilson last night. Did you see Hailsham spluttering? Priceless.

it is right there may have a plot to kill him??? or at least lead a coup??

did anyone see the great britain cop spraying the black car driver for absolutly no reason the other night. cop rekoned he was wearing a loud shirt in a built up area and driving on the cracks in the pavement. sorry, to make light of a appaling situation, but who'd of thought a p*ss take from 'the not the nine o'clock news' (early 80's tv prog) could be so relavant today.

Wilson programme was reveling wasn't It?... Secret army ? sounded like something out of Reggie Perrin :-)

thats a.............??????? perhaps someone else will answer my question then??

Didn't see the Wilson programme, but I am reading a hugely funny novel at the mo and it has an interesting passage in about the problems succesfull revolutionaries face.
If i can find the passage, I'll bob it on here cos it is very funny, but also very poignant, and (typical of the author) it is an inspired and cutting observation of human nature.
Alan

I remember when Wilson went in Hosptal for a operation after he stepped down as premier when he came too he had problems with is memory the doctors said it was not dementia and could not say what it was, did they mention that on the T V program ? was it a case of MI5 brain washing ?

NEWSFLASH.
In an attempt to stop the bird flu pandemic before it reaches the USA, George W Bush has ordered the bombing of the Canary Islands.

Kivver - yes it appears that a rogue element in MI5 were paranoid about the imminent threat of communism, the CIA believed that Wilson was a KGB plant after the sudden death of Hugh Gaitskell who had been to the USSR on 1 January for talks with Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev. The Establishment feared communist plants in the unions, the break down in law and order and the erosion of the old aristocratic order who had for centuries been used to power. The Queen Mother, Lord Mountbatten and leading army members had created secret militia who given the appropriate circumstances would lead a military coup. They clearly had attempted to discredit Wilson with so called 'black propaganda' via friendly press (an affair with Marcia Williams, his membership of the communist party, illegal diamond payments from South Africa). Essentially, there was no need for a coup because Heath won the election in 1970. An army 'training exercise' to take over London Airport was said to be in fact a training exdercise for a coup.

Fascinating to relive again the real naked confrontation of left and right of the 60s and 70s that of course came to a head with Thatcher and the miners later. I wonder if those battles have become quieter as everyone seems more interested in consumerism now but the programme reminded me of the real edge to politics then as opposed to the media circus we have now. And also how threatened and paranoid the Establishment was.

thanks for that scrooge, sounds interesting, wished id seen it.

could be interesting following the repeort nuclear energy may not be the way foward, gaz powered stations are getting to expensive, renewable energy is years off. talk of going back to coal fired stations. uuummmmm i wonder where the coal might come from when all the cheap imports start to get more expensive.

Gazprom as not taken over how power stations yet, did you mean Gas? LOL.

Kivver - think there is part 2 of another doc on Wilson on ITV on Tues.

i was about to phone my mate Gas, and got mixed up.

brainboru, we should also be encouraged there are still writers and media able and willing to investigate and report misbehaviours in high places.

After the recent attemept in redefiniting "torture". I wdoner in what context and senses are the following "great"?

"Alexander The Great"
"The Great Pyramid"
"All Creatures Great and Small"
"It's A Great Day To Be Alive"
"The Great Lakes"
"Great Depression"
"The Great Western Railway"
"A great game."
"A great movie"
...

A little story from America ...

Walker loses weight and finds soul

"...
His new-found profile has seen him inundated with commercial offers - including a reported $5m to advertise a weight-loss pill, and offers to endorse shampoo, vitamins and smoking patches.

But he says he is unwilling to compromise his integrity by endorsing products he doesn't use.
..."

In our age of spins and b%^*s&^*, wouldn't it be an essential small step to greatness by people stops claiming credits for other people's achievments, blame the innocent and clobber those less able to defend themselves.

There can be no greatness without respect.

BBC watchdog report on rogue builders, John Richards, Allan Phillips and George Chaffer, who cons elderly victims out of their life savings.

BBC Watchdog

mentioned in my opening post about an elderly relative who has alzheimer's and clearly has alzheimer's being conned out of her savings by a top building society who i wont mention but are based in the midshires. All the girl wanted her to do when she went into the society was sign up for 5 year bond. why would you ask someone in her 70's and clearly not all there to sign up to a five year bond????? this is the kind of thing we all have to put with.

Kivver
I trust your relative was not persuaded to sign for this bond.
If she was then name and shame the Society.

Ian

she was and there is a big clue in the above post as to who it was. of course her kin are making inquires and complaints.

Kivver,

IMHO, those in the front line selling goods and services are but small fish footsoldiers following orders and instructions ...


BBC Watchdog

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We may be heading back to greatness!!!
From the news today, Law Lords showing common sense. Unbelievable, but true.

The Law Lords have overturned a court ruling that teenager Shabina Begum's human rights were violated when she was banned from wearing full-length Islamic dress at school.

In a ruling which many teachers will see as reaffirming the authority of schools, the House of Lords allowed an appeal by Denbigh High School in Luton, Bedfordshire.

Lord Bingham said the school was fully justified in acting as it did. "It had taken immense pains to devise a uniform policy which respected Muslim beliefs but did so in an inclusive, unthreatening and uncompetitive way," he said.