Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

The 1st Informed referendum...how many more times?

The so called red lines in TM's Mansion House speech with the possibility of a slight softening in certain areas, but absolutely not the customs union.

I'll just add that I regard myself as a moderate Leaver, if you look back at my posts I have never said it would be easy for those who had to negotiate on our behalf or indeed without problems for the people.

The whole point of Brexit for me was to take control of our own trade with the rest of the world including the EU. I also believe that we cannot trade with the EU on the same terms as those countries within the EU.

Also to be able to control our borders and be subject to the Laws of the Land, our land.

"The whole point of Brexit for me was to take control of our own trade with the rest of the world including the EU. I also believe that we cannot trade with the EU on the same terms as those countries within the EU."

Which means that the UK will have to pay a tax on the deals to support the organisation and administration necessary for the running of the remaining Union.

Nothing is for nothing.

A good deal? You must be joking, and now they want more.



EU to seek more Brexit concessions on fishing and tax to stop UK gaining any competitive advantage


By James Crisp, Brussels Correspondent
16 November 2018 • 4:27pm



European Union governments will try to railroad Britain into a permanent customs union and extract more UK concessions in fishing, heaping yet more pressure on an embattled Theresa May.

The EU-27 is looking to hard-wire British commitments on fishing, tax, the environment, social standards, security, transport and foreign policy into the negotiating boundaries of the future UK-EU trade agreement.

EU-27 governments are seeking “dynamic alignment” on those standards to ensure they keep up with Brussels over time, ensuring the UK is shackled to its red tape and preventing it from being more competitive than the bloc.


More: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/11/16/eu-seek-brexit-concessions-fishing-tax-stop-uk-gaining-competitive/

Just spoke to a couple of guys in my local , Fred laughed before the referendum when I said the same and couldn't understand why remain was nailed on to win and all those I spoke to were voting leave including the youngsters except one. Better than any poll Fred , get dressed and get out and speak to real people.

First guy confirmed what I already knew which is Mazzarati are now placing big orders in the UK due to exchange rates , long term , and big money is being spent on new machinery to meet these orders.

Second guy , came in half hour late due to the company he works for just sealing a big deal with a just in time manufacturer and having to agree new staffing levels for when the orders kick in.

They are doing this regardless of us getting a deal or no deal so my best guess is that no one outside the UK really gives a shite about Brexit so let's just leave and get on with things.

The just in time argument is just as imaginary as the Irish border problem unless your a remoaner.

JIT is nothing like they portray on the news anyway.

Amber Rudd ... geez getting desperate , needs friends.

My gut feel is TM will get this deal to parliament. How it goes from there hmmm

Dil,

Have a look at the projected turnovers and profits of companies in the Ftse 350.

Seems to me that they don't have the same confidence about Brexit as you do.

Also, look at the number of large companies "bolstering" their share price by buybacks rather than employing the "Cash" for R and D.

Seems the lack confidence in the glorious future you advocate.

I think we should merely give 'No Deal' a re-name and then we could all be much more enthusiastic about it

How about SUICIDE.

The term, "No Deal" has disaster written all over it. Blatantly, it even conjures up the feelings of "Suicide" for Fred.

I'm thinking maybe we go out with a "Complete Break".

This name conjures up the potential for a new start with new opportunities and with a complete break from all the negatives of the EU - which negatives are why lots of us wanted to leave the EU in the first place.

We could all of us start getting really enthusiastic about a "Complete Break", don't you think?

A bit like ploughing up an Orchard or Vineyard at the end of December as the trees have no fruit or berries on them and attempting to replace with a profitable cropping business with weeds and hoping to find a profitable stock which can graze on it for free.


Based on short-term hopes dreamt about in comics.

Mind there will be some barrow boys making a "kill" out of flogging the "dreams" before they move on to other pastures.

Has Farage moved to Donald Trump land yet?

cynic , why is no deal bad for business exactly ?

Brilliant, quite brilliant!



https://www.captiongenerator.com/1176382/Jacob-Rees-Mogg-saves-Brexit

Reading today's hard copy Sunday Telegraph, I greatly feel the PM has definitely been cheating us by way of manipulation - and her MPs and Cabinet too.

She might survive the 'no confidence crisis' thingy.

I do hope those who are in position to do so, can lever things, and particularly concerning the NI Backstop, back to a situation, that is definitely acceptable to more hard Brexiteers and thereby more in line with the Referendum vote.

More appropriate!

November 18, 2018
The proposed Withdrawal Agreement breaches international human rights conventions
Written by
Martin Parsons

Dr Martin Parsons is an author and has recently completed a book on Conservatism and UK national identity and values.

On Friday Michel Barnier told a meeting of EU27 ambassadors the EU has a “duty” to stand firm on its key Brexit red lines and not compromise on the draft Withdrawal Agreement.

However, what seems to have escaped M. Barnier’s attention – and that is the most generous way of putting it – is that some of those red lines are serious breaches of international human rights conventions and could even lead to an investigation by the UN Human Rights Committee.

The most important area where the draft text breaches human rights conventions to which all EU member states have signed up is the requirement that the UK cannot leave the customs backstop without the permission of the EU. There is is a further potential breach over the division of the UK created by the EU insistence that Northern Ireland be subjected to additional EU regulations over which they will have no say.

Specifically, the draft Withdrawal Agreement breaches the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR).

The important thing about the ICCPR is that unlike many other human rights conventions, such as the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the ICCPR has legal teeth because countries ratifying are required to give it legal status in their country.

That means that any breach of it can be subject to judicial review. The very first article of the ICCPR states:

Article 1
All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

All peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law. In no case may a people be deprived of its own means of subsistence.

The States Parties to the present Covenant, including those having responsibility for the administration of Non-Self-Governing and Trust Territories, shall promote the realization of the right of self-determination, and shall respect that right, in conformity with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations.

Please note that first section: All peoples have the right of self determination.

By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic… development.

Requiring the UK to sign a treaty taking away that right to determine our own political and economic development i.e. leave the backstop, without the EU’s permission, is a clear violation of Article 1 of the ICCPR.

Now, the EU actually makes great play of the importance of the ICCPR; in fact, it is a major tool of EU foreign policy. Through the EU’s Generalised Scheme of Preference (GSP), it grants a number of developing countries zero tariff or low tariff access to the EU Single Market – providing that they actively comply with a number of international human rights conventions, among which the ICCPR is prominent.

Compliance requires not simply saying the right thing, but also doing the right thing.

For example, in February this year there was serious concern amongst business leaders in Pakistan that they could lose GSP status precisely because of Pakistan’s non-compliance with aspects of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. It is therefore an extraordinary and shameless act of double hypocrisy for the EU to breach the ICCPR in such a blatant way.

There are actually other international human rights conventions which the EU has potentially breached in the draft Withdrawal Agreement as well. For example, Article 73 of the UN Charter which relates to countries which do not have ‘a full measure of self-government’ i.e. where a foreign power exercises a measure of political or economic control, requires that foreign power to recognise ‘the principle that the interests of the inhabitants of these territories are paramount’, while the UN convention relating to such territories specifically states that:

Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

However, returning to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), it is clear that the draft Withdrawal Agreement is a very blatant breach of the ICCPR, which is legally enforceable in any country which has ratified it – as all EU members states have.

It is therefore possible for anyone to apply for judicial review of the Withdrawal Agreement.

However, even if a request for judicial review were refused – because all 28 EU member states have ratified not just the ICCPR itself, but also the First Optional Protocol, a referral can be made directly to the UN Human Rights Committee by any individuals who claim that any of their rights enumerated in the Covenant have been violated and who have exhausted all available domestic remedies may submit a written communication to the Committee for consideration.

As all EU member states are required to collectively agree the Withdrawal Agreement, they become liable when they do so. I wonder how the people of Belgium or Germany – or for that matter Ireland – will feel about being investigated by the UN Human Rights Committee because of a serious breach of an international human rights convention by the European Union as it sought to retain control over an independent sovereign nation after it left the EU?

Hmmm? Ha Ha Bloody! Or, as they say in Wales, "Ha Bloody Ha! Gotcha!"