Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Martini,

I don't know.

I suggest you waste your time and read my postings and my choice of words again. I think you will find that while I challenge views I am not as proscriptive in thinking as you suggest.

However, more of the public are better informed now, than they were in June 2016 of the possible/probable effects of “Brexit”, or what some saw as their “escape” from the prohibitions of the EU. (Could be analogous to what seems to be adolescents or teenagers threaten to leave or walk out of home after a minor fracas. Thinking themselves “grown up” but unaware of the complexities of “freedom”.)

Also, there seems to be an increased awareness and interest by the "younger" members of the society who have more to lose than many old self-satisfied reprobates who post on this thread.
Also, there appears to me and many others, a change in awareness of the consequences of Brexit, associated with the differing views and seeming confusion of many Brexiteers as to what they actually understand by “Brexit”, many think a second referendum would be reasonable.

Before “Brexit” goes ahead in its “present form”, with the possible or probable unprepared for social upheavals and economic chaos, I think, it would be reasonable to have either a general election, with “Brexit” proposals in the different party manifestos or another referendum with better-defined proposals or propositions.

Personally, I think the UK has benefitted from its closeness to or involvement in the EU, but while I think I am insulated from the possible “exit” problems, but I would prefer my grandchildren's future not to be diminished.

Martini,

Have a look at the initial interview with the tory hero Portillo..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bsvwy4/this-week-22112018

It has probably passed you by but we have had a generall election since the Brexit referendum and guess what the great British public voted for parties supporting Brixit.

Also how many referendums can we have?

Maybe best of 3 or 5 if a new paragraph in our engagement with Europe changes?

You are just like the European politicians in your approach to democracy, threaten the people with dia consequences if they don,t vote the right way and insist on repeated elections until they do.

Prefer that attitude to ignoring the present will of the people and relying on a referendum sold on false pretences to the public.


But you are entitled to believe whatever suits you.

But it seems to me like helping a man suffering from a depression to commit suicide before discussing his decision with him and allowing him to change his mind.

There you go again how do you know it is the present will of the people?

Goodness gracious just wear have you been in the last 6 months M?

Ahh Fred’s struggling so Stan comes to his side. So Stan maybe I missed it but can you point me to this source that shows what the great British public want. And please don.t refer me to the thoughts of chairman Fred

Fred struggling now wear did you get that from?

So you don’t know either. Sigh well I have definitive proof that the British Peppple don’t want another referendums or GE for that matter but I am not going to tell you where I got it. So there

Spain has now reached agreement with the EU and the UK. They say they will vote for Brexit tomorrow and negotiate directly with the UK about Gibraltar separately.

My £5 says:

The EU will accept the UK's terms tomorrow.
The UK House of Commons will then vote NOT to accept them. TM will lose because she has alienated the DUP and can't even rely on Labour votes to win the this vote.
(I think Labour would love to use this opportunity to try to force a General Election, using the government's H of C vote failure and the split in the Tory party as electioneering tools to try to win power.).
Meanwhile, JRM and the rest of the ERG/Brexiteers will then find the full compliment of 48 Tory MPs to propose a 'Vote of No Confidence' in the PM. This vote WILL succeed in ousting TM. The Tories will now also want to re-unite and get rid of their split.
Dominic Raab will win the leadership vote and become the next PM.
TM and the present Chancellor will leave the government.
JRM and Boris will take Cabinet positions with JRM as the next Chancellor.
The EU will then be told to 'get stuffed' if they can't accept our modifications to the Brexit deal.
I'm not sure what will happen then, as I can't see the EU changing their stance.
I think 'No Deal' will be re-named as 'Clean Break' (or similar).
We will then begin to hear some confidence voluminously pumped into the air about how successful the UK is going to be after Brexit and we will go about the job of leaving the EU with lots of the required preparations for our 'Clean Break'.
No need for a General Election because Boris will bring the DUP back on board.
Under JRM, HS2 will also be stopped and Foreign Aid will be massively changed and reduced.
We will also prepare the way for a new "Brittania" ship for use by 'the Royals' and to help the UK as a Mobile Trading Base around the world. Brittania will hopefully be built in the EU too as a friendly gesture. Might well be the same shipyard and methodology being used to build the new Spirit of Adventure and Spirit of Discovery for SAGA.

Martini,

Are you communicating with spirits or drinking them?

Review the Newspapers, News and political commentary.

I suggest you reread my post.

To me, it would be sensible for the public to review the present information now available, hold a NEW REFERENDUM rather than cow down to what seem to me to be bigoted zealots.

Just because the Gaurdian thinks that way and you think it is sensible does not mean that that is what the majority of the public want. I ask yet again where is you proof. O and I was dragged/kept in the EU by the bigoted zealots who want to further erode our national identity for many years.

Nice one Exec I can go along with that and would like to add Boris as Brexit minister so that he can be the one to tell the EU to get stuffed.

M , stop banging your head against a brick wall it's not worth it ... Fred's always right.

Roll on that much needed "Informed" referendum.. if only to shut the Tories up on here 😁

Be careful boys, your nanny is watching you.

fred - what i wrote was "for myself, and quite probably the majority of the country, i think a second referendum would be an appalling choice, though i understand the argument proposing this"

i did not ask nor even expect you to agree with me, any more than i would ever expect you to give credit to TM

Now for the tricky bit

The question for all on this site is how we going to trade this situation.

Buy Sell or hide behind the sofa?

EU leaders agree UK's Brexit deal at Brussels summit

EU leaders have approved an agreement on the UK's withdrawal and future relations - insisting it is the "best and only deal possible".

After 20 months of negotiations, the 27 leaders gave the deal their blessing after less than an hour's discussion.

They said the deal - which needs to be approved by the UK Parliament - paved the way for an "orderly withdrawal".

Theresa May said the deal "delivered for the British people" and set the UK "on course for a prosperous future".

Speaking in Brussels, she urged both Leave and Remain voters to unite behind the agreement, insisting the British public "do not want to spend any more time arguing about Brexit".

The UK is scheduled to leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker said anyone in Britain who thought the bloc might offer improved terms if MPs rejected the deal would be "disappointed".

But European Council President Donald Tusk, who broke the news of the agreement on Twitter, said he would not speculate on what would happen in such a situation, saying: "I am not a fortune teller."

The UK Parliament is expected to vote on the deal on 12 December, but its approval is far from guaranteed.

Labour, the Lib Dems, the SNP, the DUP and many Conservatives MPs are set to vote against.

French President Emmanuel Macron has vowed to force Britain into the Irish border backstop if it does not give up access to UK fishing waters.

Mr Macron said maintaining the customs union would be used as 'leverage' in the next phase of talks on the final UK-EU trade deal.

Prime Minister Theresa May has insisted Britain will leave the customs union, which is essential to striking trade deals, after Brexit. But under the divorce deal agreed in Brussels today this can only happen if there is an alternative for keeping open the Irish border.

If France refuses to agree a trade deal because of a dispute, entering the backstop - which is hated by Brexiteers, Unionists and the DUP - could be inevitable.

Mr Macron's intervention sparked a ferocious backlash from both sides of the Brexit divide.

No doubt JRM, BJ, IDS, the DUP, and a few more besides, will be telling TM, "We told you so!"

Unless, things change somewhat, this is NOT going to be voted through by the UK parliament.

But I can't now see the EU agreeing to ANY changes in the UK's agreement.

Therefore, it's NO DEAL - HERE WE COME!

Stand by for a market crash, IMHO.