This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

9/11 conspiracy theorists multiply
Many Americans suspect U.S. government involvement or complicity

Helayne Seidman / The Washington Post David Ray Griffin, Christian theologian and author of "The New Pearl Harbor," talks on his cell phone before a lecture about the destruction of the World Trade Center at St. Marks Church in the East Village.

By Michael Powell

Updated: 10:11 a.m. ET Sept. 8, 2006
NEW YORK - He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours.

He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaeda had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen.

It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora.

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He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered.

"To me, the report read as a cartoon." White-haired and courtly, Griffin sits on a couch in a hotel lobby in Manhattan, unspooling words in that reasonable Presbyterian minister's voice. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives."

Such as?

"There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives."

If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the widespread belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 in order to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon.


Related content
Vote: Do you believe any 9/11 conspiracy theories?
Discuss: Your thoughts on 9/11 conspiracy theories



Distrust near Ground Zero
Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act."

You could dismiss this as a louder than usual howl from the CIA-controls-my-thoughts-through-the-filling-in-my-molar crowd. Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities.

Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing -- it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down."

But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers.

Yeah, as if . . .

The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. As cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists anywhere this side of Guy Fawkes, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. There's nothing like a triple, Google-fed epiphany lighting up the laptop at 2:44 a.m.

Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site, there are really weird doings in Baluchistan . . .

The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota (Fetzer's an old hand in JFK assassination research); and Daniel Orr, the retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University, who's studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite.

Possible war criminal
Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon -- or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Catherine Austin Fitts served as assistant secretary of housing in the first President Bush's administration and gained a fine reputation as a fraud buster; David Bowman was chief of advanced space programs under presidents Ford and Carter. Fitts and Bowman agree that the "most unbelievable conspiracy" theory is the one retailed by the government.

Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss; he describes President Bush as a "dysfunctional creep," not to mention a "possible war criminal."

I don't know which is sadder and more increadible.
Those who write this nonsense or those who believe it.
I suppose those who write it, because they all make a few quid promoting their conspiracy theory book to go with the claims.
You'll find them in the fiction section.

alan...go on ebay and search 9/11 dvd....you'll see hundreds of people selling the truth of http://whatreallyhappened.com

Correction. you'll see thousands of people trying to make a few quid.
Its existence on e-bay is hardly evidential proof!!!
E-bay has managed to sell bottled water saying its from the diana memorial fountain and toast with a picture of Michael Jackson on it. it also has lots of empty boxes that people are happy to pay a tenner for.
If thats your idea of proving anything, I'd keep very quiet!!
Alan

alan..seriously you don't still believe a bunch of ragheads could hijack 4 planes directed by a bearded bloke in a cave in afghanistan...come on,thats the most far fetched conspiracy ever...check out www.planetquo.com

Several short postings, one theme per posting for ease of reading ...

One cannot condemn Islam based on past and recent massacres just as one cannot condemn Christianity because of The Inquisition and Hiroshima. The real heretics/infidels are those who use religion as shields and swords for their worldly aims.

It may seem inward looking but I am mostly worried about UK becoming a "cause celebre" :-(

Probably already is (ie. 7/7) :-(((((((((((

On Blair standing trial.

Fred, more reasons why I do not like to see Blair tried for war crimes ... In order of importance.

(1) I am not sure which criteria a person, any person, should be judged - his intentions, actions or consequences of his actions/inactions?

(2) Blair is also a victim of deceptions, manipulations, and probably some very "hard"
persuasions. In many ways, Blair is just a puppet. Any war crime investigations need to catch all, probably much bigger, fish. Otherwise, it is just another whitewash and encourage more repeats.

(3) If Blair is found guilty, then the INNOCENT UK public will probably be paying compensations and bears the consequences till the next generation.

On 9/11.

I have neither expertise, nor enough time, nor access to every insiders to evaluate the extent of truthfulness of tonight's TV adverts. I take opinions with a pinch of salt and I dip offical statements into a bucket of salt.

So, I wil never be sure of the the TRUTH behind 9/11.

But, what is important is ...

If the official story is truthful and complete, then we are in trouble.
If the conspiracy theories are true, then we are beyond big trouble.
The implications are so grave, it cannot be ignored.

"[of Robert Armstrong's evidence at the Peter Wright-MI5 trial in Melbourne]
It contains a misleading impression, not a lie. It was being economical with the truth."
- Observer 28 Dec 1986.

"Promise is a bridge of words, unsafe to walk across." - German proverb

most on here are still in 911 truth denial...quite astonishing really with so much evidence out there...

Liquid Bombing Ruse Does Not Make the Papers
Kurt Nimmo



September 30, 2006

Happening upon retired Lieutenant-Colonel Nigel Wyldes debunking of the August liquid-bomb Brothers Grimm story, posted on the Raw Story site, it immediately becomes obvious why the corporate media did not pick up the story.

Wylde, a former senior British Army Intelligence Officer, knows what he is talking about, as he was awarded the Queens Gallantry Medal for his command of the Belfast Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit in 1974.

"The idea that these people could sit in the plane toilet and simply mix together these normal household fluids to create a high explosive capable of blowing up the entire aircraft is untenable," Lt. Col. Wylde told Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed, author of The London Bombings: An Independent Inquiry. "This story has been blown out of all proportion. The liquids would need to be carefully distilled at freezing temperatures to extract the required chemicals, which are very difficult to obtain in the purities needed." Following this, other arduous, albeit impossible on an airliner, procedures would be required.

But Wylde is not alone. "Wyldes concerns are echoed by others familiar with British terrorism-related intelligence operations, such as Glen Jenvey, who is profiled in the bestselling book, The Terror Tracker, by terrorism investigator Neil Doyle. Jenvey worked for several military attaches monitoring terrorist groups in London and obtained crucial video and surveillance evidence used by British police to arrest radical cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri, who was convicted last February," Ahmed continues.

"Ive been closely monitoring the internet communications of extremist Muslim groups inside the UK both before and after 7/7, and they are intimately interconnected," said Jenvey, who is affiliated with the London-based terror watch group VIGIL. "Weve identified a coordinated leadership of at least 20 and up to 60 people, extremist preachers with blatant international al-Qaeda terrorist connections."

Jenvey noted that even though they are known to the authorities and are monitored while breaking the law with impunity, particularly in their private sermons, the police have failed to take appropriate action against them. "The police dont need to round up and detain thousands of British Muslims. If they only arrested, charged and prosecuted these 20 key terrorist leaders, they will have a struck a fatal blow against the epicentres of al-Qaeda extremism in the UK. But theyre sitting on this."

Of course, this is hardly news, as the BBC reported some time ago the British MI5 sheltered Abu Qatada, described as a "senior al-Qaeda leader," and MI6 protected Haroon Rashid Aswat, said to be the mastermind of the July 7, 2005, London bombings.

"The London Independent also reported 2 days before the London Bombings how MI5 has previously used so called Al Qaeda operatives as informants, allowing them to be left alone as a trade off," writes Steve Watson. "This only came to light when Bisher al-Rawi was captured by the CIA and taken to the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay. The original Independent link has now mysteriously been removed." Numerous other examples, beyond the scope of this modest blog entry, are out there, demonstrating government complicity in terrorism.

But even with a plethora of easily discernible evidence out there proving "al-Qaeda" terrorism is a ruse, our corporate media, at the behest of the perfidious neocons, plods along, reporting blatantly false and even stupid remarks issued by venal politicos as they connive to eviscerate the Constitution in America.

"Its time for terrorists such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who planned the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, to face justice," said Democrat Rep. Chet Edwards after Congress passed the so-called detainee bill, a massive affront to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

No mention here of the fact "Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, alleged mastermind behind the September 11 plot, was granted a visa to enter the US just six weeks before the terrorist attacks in Washington and New York, according to new revelations from the federal commission studying the attacks," as reported by the Financial Times.

Of course, this oversight in regard to Mohammed is simply an "intelligence failure," even though we are told he was involved in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the Operation Bojinka plot, an aborted 2002 attack on Los Angeles U.S. Bank Tower, the Bali nightclub bombings, the failed bombing of American Airlines Flight 63, and the murder of Daniel Pearl.

Naturally, as we are expected to believe incompetence rules inside U.S. intelligence agencies, nobody was called on the carpet or sacked over the Khalid Sheikh Mohammed oversight.

Meanwhile, back in England, the suspicious connections pile up like cord wood outside a Vermont cabin late November.

"According to John Loftus, a former Justice Department prosecutor, Omar Bakri and Abu Hamza, as well as the suspected mastermind of the London bombings Haroon Aswat, were all recruited by MI6 in the mid-1990s to draft up British Muslims to fight in Kosovo," writes Nafeez Ahmed, underscoring what most of us kooky conspiracy theorists already know. "American and French security sources corroborate the revelation. The MI6 connection raises questions about Bakris relationship with British authorities today. Exiled to Lebanon and outside British jurisdiction, he is effectively immune to prosecution."

Other London-based radical clerics with terrorist connections also had a relationship to the security services. Abu Qatada, described as al-Qaedas European ambassador, was, according to French sources a long-time MI5 informant. Pakistani government insiders similarly believe that Ahmed Omar Sheikh Saeed, the British al-Qaeda finance chief from Forest Gate, not only worked with the ISI, Pakistans military intelligence service, but was also recruited by the CIA as an informant. Saeed, who reportedly wired several hundred thousand dollars to alleged chief 9/11 hijacker Mohamed Atta, is currently in Pakistani custody for the murder of Wall Street Journal journalist Daniel Pearl.

As to this last bit of info, consider we are now told Khalid Shaikh Mohammed "took part in the killing of Mr. Pearl in Pakistans largest city, Karachi, after the journalists kidnapping on Jan. 23, 2002," presumably with the ISI-CIA operative Omar Sheikh Saeed at his side, according to the New York Times.

As the journalists, or rather stenographers, at the New York Times have mortgage and Lexus payments due, we cannot expect them to make such easily stitched together connections, even if the facts are right there before them, courtesy of a simple Google search.

Lieutenant-Colonel Nigel Wyldes characterization of the absurd and effortlessly disprovable liquid-bomb plot as a "fiction" was not reported stateside in the larger corporate media, as the idea is to scare the dickens out of witless citizens, ready and eager to buy into the normative threatafter years of incessant propaganda, most of it silly or utterly fantasticalposed by Freddy Kruger Muslims lurking in the shadows with peroxide and MP3 players in hand.

But then, in Bushzarro world, up is down, black is white, Bush is a compassionate conservative even as he orders the rape of children and the waterboarding of goat herders and dirt farmers, so we shouldnt expect the truth to emerge, not now or probably ever.

Nurse!!!

alan..i can administer a dose of truth if you need me

BREAKING NEWS:
The 911 suicide bombers have finally been identified beyond any doubt. The pilots on that fatefull day at the WTC and the Pentagon were Elvis, JFK and Princess Diana.
Sources reveal that none had died and instead had been spirited away by the CIA to be trained as pilots, and heavily disguised as Arabs in a bid to start a world war that would destroy the human race.
I have of course written a book that will sell by the million to gullible people, full of quotes from other people who either hate America or have a book of their own to sell.
I am now working on my follow up that the people responsible for the London bombings were a bunch of very short miners, led by a shadowy figure known only as Snow White. My evidence for this is only that it happened on 7/7, but I am sure I can dig up some more.
The internet is full of people who will happily believe this, and I will make a mint.
Alan

alan..you 're getting closer to the truth but you've got the wrong characters...try replacing them with Cheney,wolverwitz,rumsfeld,zahiem,netanyahu and other Bush cabal members

Wow!!!
My irony must have gone rusty!
Do you also have books about faked moon landings, the holocaust not happening, Area 51 at Roswell, Alien autopsies and the elixir of life??
I've got a great one that proves beyond any doubt* at all that every government in every country has had all its members kidnapped and replaced by extra terrestial beings in robotic suits to look like them.
Wanna buy it???

*All reasonable doubt to anyone who believes the 911 conspiracy theories. Its more believable and comes with a free "surviving the aliens kit".

Senate Wins Fight To Lower Allowable Amperage Levels On Detainees' Testicles
September 29, 2006 | Issue 4240 THE ONION



WASHINGTON, DCLed by a bipartisan group of senators critical of White House policy on suspected terrorists, the Senate passed a bill Thursday that prohibits interrogators from exceeding 100 amps per testicle when questioning detainees. "Even in times of war, it is counterproductive and wrong to employ certain inhumane interrogation techniques, and using three-digit amperage levels on the testicles of captives constitutes torture," said Sen. John Warner (R-VA), who has also supported reducing the size of attack dogs and the height of nude pyramids. "Using amperages of 99 and lower, with approved surge protectors on the jumper-cable clamps, are the hallmarks of a civilized society." The legislation did not address amperage restrictions on suspected terrorists' labia.


Made me laugh.

Barwoni, when you count the number of Muslims killed by "fellow"
Muslims, I think it would be reasonable to question who supplied the weapons and why. Also who are producing arms for use in Iraq and Afghanistan (Britain's Vietnam).
It would also be reasonable to count the number of Vietnamese, Iraqis, and Afghans killed by indiscriminate American bombing (collateral damage). Mind, which is OK, as America is a peace-loving nation.

ADXP, this country would benefit from the early demised of Blair. He accepted his role as "The Leader", he is responsible for the results and implication of his actions, however well intentioned. He is not fit for purpose as he ignored the advice of many better-informed advisers and rewrote the known facts to fit the case he wanted to present.

When I was working, if, or when my staff or I made mistakes, I took the responsibility for those actions.

I think, if MR BLAIR and MR BUSH had their own children in the firing line their decisions may have been slightly different. Sacrificing others for your cause is easier than sacrificing your own. That also goes for those preaching the use of "suicide bombings".

Yesterday, an audio tape appeared on jihadist websites, coming from the head of Al Qaeda in Iraq and successor to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Muhajir urged Muslims in Iraq to kidnap Christians. Details of his speech can be found on the BBC, AKI and Associated Press on Topix.net, Washington Times, Times of India and numerous local papers with AP feeds.

Muhajir, also known as Ayyub al-Masri, said: "I call on every holy fighter in Iraq to strive to capture some dogs of the Christians so that we can liberate our imprisoned sheikh."

This was a reference to Omar Abdul Rahman, the blind Egyptian sheikh, who is currently in prison in the US for his role in the plotting of the first attack upon the World Trade Center of February 26, 1993, in which six people died. The sheikh is the spiritual leader of Gamaa Islamiya, a group which has claimed to have renounced violence. Al Qaeda states Gamaa Islamiya has now officially joined its ranks.

As well as urging Iraqis to kidnap Christians, he gave Muslims a Ramadan greeting, saying: "I congratulate the Muslim nation on the occasion of the holy month of Ramadan, the month of jihad. I ask God to make it a month for honour and victory for Muslims."

Muhajir also urged scientists, including nuclear scientists, to join the cause of jihad. He said: "We are in dire need of you. The field of jihad can satisfy your scientific ambitions, and the large American bases are good places to test your unconventional weapons, whether biological or dirty, as they call them."

"The blood has been spilled in Iraq of more than 4,000 foreigners who came to fight." he said, admitting that his fighters have suffered heavy losses.

He concluded his speech with the following: "To the tribal leaders who are on our side and help us economically and with manpower I say Allah will reward you....but to those who are with the traitors and the occupiers I say that certainly you may earn money and important positions but the truth is with Allah. We ask them to return to their faith and they can do so only if they repent."

I think there is some truth to the Roswell incident.