Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

cynic - probably very little difference in their stances, though I have not read the manifestos. I suppose the main difference in background is that there are still hundreds of thousands of 'Palestinians' who can say 'We wus robbed' because they can remember pre-1948.

As MightyMicro implies above there can be a great difference between what is lawful and what is considered 'right'. Israel can point to the UN as their right to existence, while many Arabs will consider the UN action in 'creating' Israel to be unlawful.

An outsider might ask why, if Israel was ceated for Jewish people (though I am still not certain whether that refers to someone of a particular race or someone who follows the Jewish faith), a state could not be created for, say, Roman Catholics, or Mormons, or people with blue eyes, or left-handed people etc etc...

It has always seemed to me that one problem has always, and will always, stem from the fact that many Jews see themselves as extra-special. Is that unfair? Has the rest of the world perpetuated that perception?

Maggot: Mormons do have a State -- it's called Utah. :-)

On edit and on reflection, so do Roman Catholics -- Vatican City.

"It has always seemed to me that one problem has always, and will always, stem from the fact that many Jews see themselves as extra-special. Is that unfair? Has the rest of the world perpetuated that perception? "

I have never met a Jew who thought that about himself or other Jews.
Why on earth would they think that?
Perhaps by saying that you are yourself "perpetuating that perception"

Maggot, Are you thinking of the "the chosen people" mythology? I think this "belief" is part of the problem in the psyche of a minority, but still vocal group of present Israelis forming part of their driving ideology.

Hello Fred - found time in your busy retirement schedule to look at the video in post 821 yet? ;)

PS might have know you would pop up as soon as the chance to have a dig about Jews.

Isaacs, I allow you your personal pleasures, you can read the posting again, if it is so important to you.

My comment was not a dig at the Jews, but observation from listening to a Jewish woman, who used the phrase, when giving justifications for the present Israeli state and its actions.

Also, I have heard and read the statement, the Chosen People, advanced by others, when discussing the ownership of Jerusalem and their "right" (or "belief") to extend the Israeli State.

But you are entitled to understand the content of the postings according to your own constructs.

Also, I would suggest you read the qualifications I made in that post, before tapping the keyboard.

I don't recall disagreeing with the thrust of your statement Fred just amusing myself at the speed with which you popped up. I look forward to a similarly speedy response next chance there is something negative to say about Hamas or Muslims more generally. Doubtless you will be busy enjoying your busy retirement at that point.

Or perhaps even busy watching the video in post 821 . . . :-)

Isaacs, Just helping to make the argument a little more balanced.

In the view of many people, retiring was my best action yet. Little do they know. 8-)

Fred/MrCharts. I asked the question because I know very little about Jews other than that which I have read, and from my own observations that some, at least, want to stand out from everybody else by wearing clothing which marks them, unfailingly, as Jews.

Anyway, I suspect that lots of Palestinians living in Gaza have that perception, rightly or wrongly. That certainly explains their inbuilt hatred of Israel.

I understand the 'chosen people' syndrome is certainly advanced by Zionists. Perhaps it is not typical of the beliefs of the majority of Jews.

Maggot

"and from my own observations that some, at least, want to stand out from everybody else by wearing clothing which marks them, unfailingly, as Jews.

Anyway, I suspect that lots of Palestinians living in Gaza have that perception, rightly or wrongly. That certainly explains their inbuilt hatred of Israel."

You really mean that? The clothing that distinguishes ultra religious jewish clergy explains why the Palestinians hate Israel?

How do you think they feel about vicars? And what with all those fancy clothes, do you suppose they want to bomb the shit out of the Vatican?

And as for the clothing in general, can you tell the difference between these ultra religious jews and the quakers? I often can't.

An incredible and uncharacteristic lapse in your usual no nonsense common sense posting style, maggot. Were you drunk?

Hi Gausie. No I wasn't drunk. Pointing out that it's my belief that practicing Jews wear clothing that deliberately distinguishes them - as opposed to, say, practicing Christians who don't, so far as I know. And while even last night there were headline news stories about the Holocaust relating to Jews, it's not so often that I hear headline stories about more recent massacres on the Balkans or Africa, or Ethiopia (when thousands of schoolchildren were killed one weekend) or stories about how Russians were buried alive in their tens of thousands in German concentration camps.

And I wasn't expressing my own feelings, merely trying to see how the constant outpouring of indignation about Jews killed in the Holocaust (which for any Palestinian under 60 was way back in the past), might seem to Palestinians in Gaza, which was the subject of the original thread.

On the subject of clothing, I was driving back through Antwerp early one morning and the sight of literally dozens of young and older Jews walking the streets wearing skull caps, black overcoats and the adult men sporting huge black beards, was definitely surreal - I can imagine how easily a Palestinian whose family had been killed by Isreali fire, might react.

So far as I am aware Quakers in Britain (of which my Great Uncle was one; also a missionary in China, Malaya and Kenya) don't wear distinguishing clothes as a matter of course - the ones I have known never did, anyway. I believe ultra-religious Quakers might wear large-brimmed hats with their black jackets and knickerbocker-type trousers.

I could also have made similar points about practising Muslims, of course. Which might have a similar effect on some Jews whose families had been killed by Palestinian fire. It's not my perception that's important - it's the perception of those in the conflict.

But thanks for reading - this is one of the places I learn about things of which I actually know little.

jews who choose to dress in traditional garb (that's another interesting question actually), do not do so because they want to show they belong to the club, but because their religious belief demands it .... your comment on that issue is therefore a considerable distortion of the truth ..... standard media reporting if you like!

Maggot - the similarity to Quakers is a good one. Most jews don't wear the 'costume' you describe - and if you think about it, you probably already knew that although maybe hadn't realised.

Think of jews you will have seen pictures or newsreel of. People like Madonna, Alan Sugar, Al Greenspan, Nigel Lawson, Michael Howard, Michael Winner, Malcolm Rifkind, Albert Einstein, Karl Marx (along with Harpo, Groucho, Chico, Gummo and Zeppo), Henry Kissinger, Charlie Chaplin, Marc Bolan, Sammy Davis Jr, Annie Lennox, Tony Curtis, Barry manilow, Neil Diamond, Leonard Cohen, Stephen Spielberg, Brian Epstein, Sacha Baron Cohen, Matt Lucas, Mark Knopfler, Slash from Guns n roses, Bernard Madoff, Vidal Sassoon, George Soros, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell, Moshe Dayan, Ben Stiller, Leon Brittan, Art Garfunkel, Richard Dreyfuss, Elliot Gould, Leonard Nimoy, Henry Winkler, Kirk Douglas, Billy Joel, Peter Sellers, Stephen Sondheim, Ben Kingsley, Mel Brooks, Woody Allen, Robert Downey Jr, Paul Newman, Isaac Asimov, Carl Sagan, Will Self, Harold Pinter etc etc etc etc

I think the only black hat you'll find in that lot was Charlie Chaplin. And it's the wrong kind of hat.

Maggot - some pics after all, with Adam Sandler's songs about well known jews (from the SNL show).

Part 1


Part 3

Where I grew up (near Stamford Hill), you would think that everyone wore the very orthodox clothes. There are even degrees of orthodoxy in the clothes. Some look like they came out of the 17th century. Almost all the clothes shops there only sell those sorts of clothes. Some have big hats and some have huge hats covered in fur.

Mind you, if you went to a mainly Arab area you would find most people wearing long shifts, with beards and wearing their own version of the Jewish scull cap. The clothing issue is a red herring, especially in the Middle East where there would be far more wearing traditional Arab clothes than traditional Jewish outfits.

I have a friend who went to Hull University. He came from an extremely ultra orthodox family which was part of a group in Edinburgh. For some reason they wanted him to go there and train to be their new leader. He was not interested, but he fancied the long coats they wear. He thought they looked like the long coats that they wear in cowboy films, specifically Once Upon A Time in the West. The intention was to wear it around college. He went to a Jewish tailor and had one made up (after he proved his credentials for having it). They are called something like yamuctas.

He had the long coat made up and when he collected it the tailor said that he would have to put the egg stains on the lapels himself.

Worcester on verge of being twinned with Gaza!

For what purpose exactly they are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. It won't be long before they are sending schoolkids on exchange trips to gaza.

Funny dresses

Once upon a time I was watching a group of old men playing doubles tennis on a grass court at a private club on a very cold day.

The club like many such clubs had a dress code rules regarding of what was allowed to be worn on court.

They were dressed in whites underneath their multicolour tracksuits.

As it was cold when the match started, they continued still wearing the tracksuits.

The womens tennis captain, who was watching from the clubhouse, came outside and shouted No coloureds on the courts please.

With that Ragh, who was an Asian doctor, started to walk of the court.

I have never seen anybody blush so much before. Or apologies quite so profuse!
---------------------------------------------


As far as clothes are concern, in general, I always thought the contents of the package contained to be more important than the wrappings.

=======================

MY Love in her attire doth show her wit,
It doth so well become her:
For every season she hath dressings fit,
For Winter, Spring, and Summer.
No beauty she doth miss 5
When all her robes are on;
But Beauty's self she is
When all her robes are gone.

One my favourite poets

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/elegy20.htm

TO HIS MISTRESS GOING TO BED.

by John Donne

........

What needst thou have more covering than a man?

So are such Jews as those who dress in highly ultra orthodox clothes submitting themselves to a kind of peer pressure?

IMHO - They certainly are.

But not really any differently to:

The velvet lapelled jackets, 'Tony Curtis' hair styles and crepe-soled shoes of the 50's 'Teddy Boys'.

Today's young ladies who have 'tattooed patterns on their lower back that are visible over the top of their jeans'.

These are just examples of social groups, where the individuals who are sporting such visually fashionable items of dress or fashion style are really just making a visual statement saying, 'This is the social group to which I wish to be clearly seen to belong.'