Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Where I grew up (near Stamford Hill), you would think that everyone wore the very orthodox clothes. There are even degrees of orthodoxy in the clothes. Some look like they came out of the 17th century. Almost all the clothes shops there only sell those sorts of clothes. Some have big hats and some have huge hats covered in fur.

Mind you, if you went to a mainly Arab area you would find most people wearing long shifts, with beards and wearing their own version of the Jewish scull cap. The clothing issue is a red herring, especially in the Middle East where there would be far more wearing traditional Arab clothes than traditional Jewish outfits.

I have a friend who went to Hull University. He came from an extremely ultra orthodox family which was part of a group in Edinburgh. For some reason they wanted him to go there and train to be their new leader. He was not interested, but he fancied the long coats they wear. He thought they looked like the long coats that they wear in cowboy films, specifically Once Upon A Time in the West. The intention was to wear it around college. He went to a Jewish tailor and had one made up (after he proved his credentials for having it). They are called something like yamuctas.

He had the long coat made up and when he collected it the tailor said that he would have to put the egg stains on the lapels himself.

Worcester on verge of being twinned with Gaza!

For what purpose exactly they are complete opposite ends of the spectrum. It won't be long before they are sending schoolkids on exchange trips to gaza.

Funny dresses

Once upon a time I was watching a group of old men playing doubles tennis on a grass court at a private club on a very cold day.

The club like many such clubs had a dress code rules regarding of what was allowed to be worn on court.

They were dressed in whites underneath their multicolour tracksuits.

As it was cold when the match started, they continued still wearing the tracksuits.

The womens tennis captain, who was watching from the clubhouse, came outside and shouted No coloureds on the courts please.

With that Ragh, who was an Asian doctor, started to walk of the court.

I have never seen anybody blush so much before. Or apologies quite so profuse!
---------------------------------------------


As far as clothes are concern, in general, I always thought the contents of the package contained to be more important than the wrappings.

=======================

MY Love in her attire doth show her wit,
It doth so well become her:
For every season she hath dressings fit,
For Winter, Spring, and Summer.
No beauty she doth miss 5
When all her robes are on;
But Beauty's self she is
When all her robes are gone.

One my favourite poets

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/donne/elegy20.htm

TO HIS MISTRESS GOING TO BED.

by John Donne

........

What needst thou have more covering than a man?

So are such Jews as those who dress in highly ultra orthodox clothes submitting themselves to a kind of peer pressure?

IMHO - They certainly are.

But not really any differently to:

The velvet lapelled jackets, 'Tony Curtis' hair styles and crepe-soled shoes of the 50's 'Teddy Boys'.

Today's young ladies who have 'tattooed patterns on their lower back that are visible over the top of their jeans'.

These are just examples of social groups, where the individuals who are sporting such visually fashionable items of dress or fashion style are really just making a visual statement saying, 'This is the social group to which I wish to be clearly seen to belong.'

cynic: "jews who choose to dress in traditional garb (that's another interesting question actually), do not do so because they want to show they belong to the club, but because their religious belief demands it"

I understand that, of course. But the end result is the same - people in uniforms/clothes of a certain style stand out, as they are meant to: Police; soldiers; doormen at the Ritz; nurses; firemen etc etc. Even punks; gypsies. And whenever a group of people put themselves apart - for whatever reason - it can breed antagonism, fear, resentment, all sorts of feelings towards them. Take the example of bikers - many people I know would avoid a big crowd of bikers because they were worried about being abused or assaulted. Now I know that is almost certainly a groundless fear.... Same with a big crowd of youths marching down the street or gathered on a street corner with beer bottles in their hands...they could be perfectly harmless. Same with football supporters dressed in their team's outfits - they all want to set themselves apart. But there are plenty of people who would avoid them.

A recent example is Travellers (of which there are many in East Anglia). Petitions are set up to try to avoid Travellers' sites being opened by local councils because locals' perception is of a large proportion of Travellers being criminals and their untidy sites being a blot on the countryside. That may not be true, but that's the perception of a huge majority of people. And that perception has been fostered somehow - people don't discriminate for no reason at all.

Gausie - OK, lots of Jews don't dress in traditional garb. Lots of Muslims don't either, but that wouldn't stop Muslims as a group being viewed with a suspicion by anyone whose husband was killed by one.

Thanks for your list - I would ask how you know those people are Jewish? Presumably they have considered it important at some time that people knew that. I had no idea, and to be honest it's not in my nature to even think about it. Not important to me. But when in London you can still see people walking about who either want me to know that they are Jewish, or whose religion wants me to know. Fine - I'm not interested. But whoever told them to wear that garb obviously wants those Jews to stand out as being special. As they do.

Sorry everyone - I think I am only voicing perceptions held by large chunks of the world at large.

So people who wear special clothes stand out and people of many religions and other social groups wear special clothes. Where does that lead us? Does that justify Hamas firing rockets at Israel, wanting to eradicate Israel and Jews worlwide, teaching 3 year old children to hate Jews and to want to kill them, etc.? Talk about "disproportionate".

Absolutely. But you're looking at it from the outside. If you've been taught to hate a type of people from the cradle how are you going to be persuaded otherwise when those people are firing rockets at you? The same argument applies to both sides of course.

One of the questions posed in Post Number One was: If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

I am suggesting that human nature says 'Yes' because (as I said in an earlier post) reason goes out of the window in certain circumstances.

PS. I never suggested that wearing special clothes justifies anyone wanting to take action against you. I am suggesting that where a prejudice already exists, doing anything that aligns yourself with the 'enemy' is only going to exacerbate that.

Back to topic.

12 mortars and 6 rockets have hit israeli towns, cities and farms since last Friday. The numbers look to be well down on those prior to operation cast lead.

I am not sure which is the worst.

Preventing a person wearing the symbols (clothes) of their culture or religion or not preventing it.

I suppose it is basically what the intent of the action is.

It would seem a reasonable action for and Christian priest, a Russian Orthodox priest or a Rabbi to wear their cassocks, head ware etc. if entering a Mosque with the Mullah of that community in a state.
Especially so, if they are holding a peaceful discussion with one another. (Some religious buildings have usage by more than one faith).

For me, at the present moment, it would seem daft for a Rabbi, standing out in the symbols of his religion, to enter a Mosque in Gaza, and equally daft for an Moslem Mullah to force his way into a Synagogue in Israel, or even in some parts of this country. Of course, if they were there by invitation and mutual peaceful consent, that is a different matter.

In a sensible society, one would think that it would be acceptable for anybody to wear whatever one wished. Personally, I dont like symbolism and think sometimes it as primitive and unnecessary, (my wife disagrees with me). I see the use of it, by religious groups, as evangelical. I think they have perfect right to do so if they wish.

But would you be happy with a group of young men dressed in Nazi uniforms and Swastikas parading down the street or even going to a fancy dress party. (Attila the Hun is OK though.)

We live in a funny old world.

I wonder, if my young grandchildren were in trouble, would they be hesitant before asking for help from somebody, in what they would describe as funny costumes. I guess so, but I dont know. Might ask them to do so, if the opportunity arises, when we are out together.

The 'traditional jewish clothes' are not really traditional anyway. The clothes are from the middle ages,

Haystack ..... you're right, but i think your historical timing is wrong.

Maggot ..... it seems to me that you are saying much along the same lines as the defense that because a young girl wears a short skirt she is asking to be raped

Well said, cynic.

Yeah and this is post 1066 - reminds me those bloody Normans invaded us pure white Anglo-Saxon nation and destroyed us heritage with their bloody Frog crap.
We should hunt them down and throw them out - if they're lucky. Cunning bastards - THEY DRESS LIKE US TO TRY AND BLEND IN SO WE DON'T SEE THEY ARE ALIENS.

Warra bout those bloody prancing poofters in their skirts and weirdo uniforms with flower bowls on their heads. Makes you wanna smash 'em up, no warra mean. They just bug us normal people - think they are frackin' different, special huh. And they wonder why we wanna kick their frackin heads in. Yeah they make my blood boil - I see them - I see a red mist. Kill Kill Kill they deserve it. Frackin' Morris dancers.

OK I resign. I can only repeat my line:

PS. I never suggested that wearing special clothes justifies anyone wanting to take action against you. I am suggesting that where a prejudice already exists, doing anything that aligns yourself with the 'enemy' is only going to exacerbate that.

Don't you dare resign, Maggot.
Please :)

Oh, 'allo, Choccie, fancy seeing you here. I agree with you -- Maggot, you're in this, so stay in!

Maggot - you may just have to resign yourself to being a politician - lol!

to remind one and all, including myself, you actually wrote, "it's my belief that practicing Jews wear clothing that deliberately distinguishes them - as opposed to, say, practicing Christians who don't, so far as I know."

as i read that, though as a politician you would probably say, "oh that is out of context and should not be interpreted that way", you are more than implying that such jews set themselves up as targets and/or martyrs, just as in the analogy i used above about nubile young girls in short skirts

i am just a doddery old fart, so perhaps lack your inestimable skills of presentation and understanding!!

Oh I agree with cynic on the first bit of the last bit :)

that'll do for starters!

Cynic, I was having difficulty forming a picture of you. Your self portrayal has been very helpful. 8-)