Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Hilly

Over the 100k hurdle now. And no, a private peep cant compete with Sky.


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963

Dil's and Iy's Hopes,

The Dils,
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/16/failed-by-both-major-parties-betrayed-britain-lurches-towards-the-abyss

The most deserved losers are the Brexit ultras. They finally launched their leadership coup and failed miserably. Without a plausible plan or a credible leader, these are the men who put the ass into assassin. After all their prating about “taking back control”, they couldn’t even organise the removal of a mortally wounded prime minister. The Brexit fanatics have always been a minority of a minority and now no one can be in any doubt about that. And this same gang claim they could negotiate a superior agreement with the EU or handle a no-deal Brexit in 100 days that are left? Oh, please. Yet there was no humility in defeat from the ultras. It was with a poisonous lack of grace that they continued to demand Mrs May’s resignation even after she had prevailed in the confidence vote that they forced upon their party. You are entitled to belly laugh the next time that anyone tries to commend Jacob Rees-Mogg as a courteous gentleman. The mask of phoney civility slipped when this serpent in a double-breasted suit continued to hiss for Mrs May’s head after his coup had failed.

worth reading the whole of today's guardian headline article ..... below is a small snip, but much more of even more interest therein


The latest Opinium poll for the Observer, taken after May survived a confidence vote on Wednesday among her own MPs, despite 117 Tory MPs failing to back her, shows Labour’s lead over the Conservatives has dropped from three points a month ago to just one point, despite the crisis engulfing the government.

Labour is unchanged on 39%, while the Tories are up two points to 38%. The Liberal Democrats have gained one point to stand on 8%, while Ukip has dropped by two points to 6%.

While approval for the prime minister over her handling of Brexit is low, it is virtually unchanged since a month ago, while Corbyn’s approval rating on Brexit has dropped and is below that of May’s. The survey found 53% of UK adults disapprove of May’s handling of Brexit against 28% who approve. But only 16% of UK adults approve of Corbyn’s handling of Brexit, against 55% who disapprove. Last month 19% approved and 50% disapproved.

also from today's guardian ..... an extract

Why are Labour’s leaders so quiet on Europe? Maybe it’s the lure of disaster

The party’s apparent defeatism on Brexit is grounded in old-style Leninist fantasy
For readers bewildered by the indifference of Labour’s leaders to Brexit, let me offer a suggestion: you cannot understand British politics until you grasp that the party has been taken over by men (and the occasional woman) who spent their lives around the fag ends of the 20th-century Marxist-Leninist movement.

It’s not that Labour now has a communist programme. Revolutionary socialism is as dead as any idea can be. Rather, Labour has inherited the mental deformations of the Leninist style of doing business: the leadership personality cult, the love of conspiracy theory, the robotic denunciations of opponents, and most critically for our current crisis, the ineradicable fantasy that the worse conditions for the masses become, the brighter the prospects of the far left are. Disaster socialism is its alternative to disaster capitalism.

i wonder what our resident apologists will come up with?
not really i don't, as they're both very predictable when under attack

Post 10902

If those opinions were correct, I would think the tories would be rushing for a general election.

To me, that appears the last thing the majority of the cons artists want at the moment.

They prefer ducking and diving behind low hedges.

It is obvious to many that the parliamentary tory party consists of riff-raff or flotsam and jetsam looking for any port in a storm, with its leader more like a camp follower pandering to the whims of any in EU who will listen to her, rather than a prime minister.

(Do you, do similar when you are wandering around in the M.E. spending your time scratching or kowtowing for deals?)


I would think that many of the labour leadership would be happy to lose the next GE and let the con artists face up to the debacle they have created.

I would think if that happens, which I doubt, then the split in the cons would be irrevocable within a 2 year period, and they would spend 20 years in the political wilderness.

That would allow labour or labour led coalition to reform the tax system, clean up the city, repair the health and welfare system, education and various infrastructures of the UK without too much resistance.

It will be interesting to watch.

But knowing how spineless and self-interested the present tory party members and leadership are at the moment I doubt the Nebula will be PM much longer.

What a farce.

Read the comments from European papers.

Broaden your perspectives.

Try watching:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bvlk79/dateline-london-15122018

quite light, but reflects other opinions.

Fred asking most of the outers on here to read or look at just about anything on here which isn’t of a raving outers point of view is a tough task..... but I suppose someone has to try...best of British 😅

Stan,

There are a few very sad blinkered individuals in the neocon's party who reflect the reason why EU is rejecting their negotiating style and expectations.

(They belong period of the "Empire". Little englanders comes to mind.)

-=-=-

A bit long for Manuel!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/16/observer-view-on-brexit-only-sensible-option-left-is-a-second-vote


"There’s one way out of this morass, but politicians must rise to the challenge Sun 16 Dec 2018 06.00 GMT Last modified on Sun 16 Dec 2018 11.40 GMT Shares 1,404 Comments 716 A pro-EU supporter outside the Houses of Parliament on 13 December. A pro-EU supporter outside the Houses of Parliament on 13 December. Photograph: Phil Noble/Reuters

The long-awaited Brexit crunch has arrived. The prime minister is wedded to a withdrawal agreement almost nobody supports. Her authority within the Conservative party was permanently damaged last week. Parliament is hopelessly split over all the possible alternatives. These divisions do not follow party lines, further confusing the situation.

The public is, by turns, baffled, alienated, alarmed – and increasingly angry at this collective national failure. The main opposition party offers no clear path forward, fixated on forcing a general election that is beyond its reach. At this vital moment, on this issue, Labour lacks bold, imaginative leadership.

In Brussels, the EU 27 are adamant, and united, in insisting they have gone as far as they can. There is no more wriggle room, no more space or appetite for substantive negotiation. Bluntly, the game is up. How would a second Brexit referendum work? Read more What is to be done? In our oft-stated view, the entire Brexit project was ever misconceived and ill-informed. The Leave campaign misled a decisive proportion of voters, some of whom now regret their choice. Theresa May’s subsequent approach to the EU negotiations was fatally skewed by her need to appease hard Tory Brexiters.

She set unrealistic, unnecessarily inflexible red lines. She over-hastily triggered article 50. If Britain is out of time, it is because May set the clock ticking. Advertisement But all that is water under the bridge. The position today, with little more than three months left, is that May’s withdrawal deal is the only one on the table.

All the rest – Norway, Canada, Canada-plus etc – are mere talk at this late, jittery juncture, not least because the EU has been clear that signing up to the withdrawal agreement and the backstop must come before negotiating any free-trade agreement. On that at least May and EU leaders were agreed on Friday. May claims binding adjustments could yet be made to the hated Irish backstop, but this is make-believe. This deal, as written, is as good as Brexit is going to get, although it represents a course of action that is very far indeed from being in Britain’s national interest. Common sense, logic and the national interest thus demand that May put her deal before the Commons for a full, meaningful vote without further delay. If, as expected – and as befits it – it is defeated, May should accept the verdict of parliament. In practice, she would then have three options: she can resign and let another Tory try where she failed; she can declare Britain will leave with no deal at all; or she can ask the public to back her.

Taken by itself, May’s resignation would do nothing to resolve the Brexit crisis. Labour could call a vote of no confidence in the government, hoping to trigger an election. But if the Tories agree on anything, it is that they do not want to face the electorate. Such a motion would almost certainly fail, changing nothing. All responsible people agree, meanwhile, that the second option – an off-the-cliff no deal – would be a catastrophe. In fact, it is not an option at all.
That leaves a second referendum as the only sensible, logical course offering a path out of the Brexit morass. The choice on the ballot should be simple, between May’s deal – according to her, the best and only one available – and the status quo, meaning Brexit would be cancelled. Article 50 would be suspended while the vote was held. Parliament, which overwhelmingly endorsed the 2016 referendum result, would be honour-bound to accept this people’s vote, too.

Etc


For Remainers, there is the obvious risk that May and the Leavers could prevail.
There’s one way out of this morass, but politicians must rise to the challenge

Fat chance with this mob in power I bet.

Do you two have each others babies?

No.

When was your last pregnancy?

It seems to me like TM is moving to unite the country by now backing a clean break rather than break faith by holding another referendium.

If that is the case, hopefully the majority of MP`s will give her their full backing now that Hunt a remainer, has started to move towards a clean cut Brexit.

If she had done this sooner she may not have lost her chance to take the Tory Party undr her leadership into the next election in 2022.

CT, You seriously think that people will forget the last 2 1/2 years of probably the worst Government in the history of Governments?...Dream on I think the expression is.

If you think the tories are bad, look at those that want to be in power. Nightmare.

Stan if people can forget about the blunders that Diane Abbott keeps making - Clueless when it comes to maths and slow as a snail. Watch these and have a chuckle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Syo86gsHk

Don't change the subject CT just answer my question.

2nd referendum
apart from the obvious objections to this, the other problem would still remain in the event that it was another close(ish) vote with the winning margin still just 4% in either direction

what then?
the same issues would remain, and if anyone thinks the labour party is anywhere near united on the brexit issue, then they are even more deluded

As usual Alf for you outers your lack of short term wrong assumptions lets you down yet again.

in what way?
and please do not forget that i have never been a rabid in either direction