Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Post 10902

If those opinions were correct, I would think the tories would be rushing for a general election.

To me, that appears the last thing the majority of the cons artists want at the moment.

They prefer ducking and diving behind low hedges.

It is obvious to many that the parliamentary tory party consists of riff-raff or flotsam and jetsam looking for any port in a storm, with its leader more like a camp follower pandering to the whims of any in EU who will listen to her, rather than a prime minister.

(Do you, do similar when you are wandering around in the M.E. spending your time scratching or kowtowing for deals?)


I would think that many of the labour leadership would be happy to lose the next GE and let the con artists face up to the debacle they have created.

I would think if that happens, which I doubt, then the split in the cons would be irrevocable within a 2 year period, and they would spend 20 years in the political wilderness.

That would allow labour or labour led coalition to reform the tax system, clean up the city, repair the health and welfare system, education and various infrastructures of the UK without too much resistance.

It will be interesting to watch.

But knowing how spineless and self-interested the present tory party members and leadership are at the moment I doubt the Nebula will be PM much longer.

What a farce.

Read the comments from European papers.

Broaden your perspectives.

Try watching:



https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bvlk79/dateline-london-15122018

quite light, but reflects other opinions.

Fred asking most of the outers on here to read or look at just about anything on here which isn’t of a raving outers point of view is a tough task..... but I suppose someone has to try...best of British 😅

Stan,

There are a few very sad blinkered individuals in the neocon's party who reflect the reason why EU is rejecting their negotiating style and expectations.

(They belong period of the "Empire". Little englanders comes to mind.)

-=-=-

A bit long for Manuel!

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/16/observer-view-on-brexit-only-sensible-option-left-is-a-second-vote


"There’s one way out of this morass, but politicians must rise to the challenge Sun 16 Dec 2018 06.00 GMT Last modified on Sun 16 Dec 2018 11.40 GMT Shares 1,404 Comments 716 A pro-EU supporter outside the Houses of Parliament on 13 December. A pro-EU supporter outside the Houses of Parliament on 13 December. Photograph: Phil Noble/Reuters

The long-awaited Brexit crunch has arrived. The prime minister is wedded to a withdrawal agreement almost nobody supports. Her authority within the Conservative party was permanently damaged last week. Parliament is hopelessly split over all the possible alternatives. These divisions do not follow party lines, further confusing the situation.

The public is, by turns, baffled, alienated, alarmed – and increasingly angry at this collective national failure. The main opposition party offers no clear path forward, fixated on forcing a general election that is beyond its reach. At this vital moment, on this issue, Labour lacks bold, imaginative leadership.

In Brussels, the EU 27 are adamant, and united, in insisting they have gone as far as they can. There is no more wriggle room, no more space or appetite for substantive negotiation. Bluntly, the game is up. How would a second Brexit referendum work? Read more What is to be done? In our oft-stated view, the entire Brexit project was ever misconceived and ill-informed. The Leave campaign misled a decisive proportion of voters, some of whom now regret their choice. Theresa May’s subsequent approach to the EU negotiations was fatally skewed by her need to appease hard Tory Brexiters.

She set unrealistic, unnecessarily inflexible red lines. She over-hastily triggered article 50. If Britain is out of time, it is because May set the clock ticking. Advertisement But all that is water under the bridge. The position today, with little more than three months left, is that May’s withdrawal deal is the only one on the table.

All the rest – Norway, Canada, Canada-plus etc – are mere talk at this late, jittery juncture, not least because the EU has been clear that signing up to the withdrawal agreement and the backstop must come before negotiating any free-trade agreement. On that at least May and EU leaders were agreed on Friday. May claims binding adjustments could yet be made to the hated Irish backstop, but this is make-believe. This deal, as written, is as good as Brexit is going to get, although it represents a course of action that is very far indeed from being in Britain’s national interest. Common sense, logic and the national interest thus demand that May put her deal before the Commons for a full, meaningful vote without further delay. If, as expected – and as befits it – it is defeated, May should accept the verdict of parliament. In practice, she would then have three options: she can resign and let another Tory try where she failed; she can declare Britain will leave with no deal at all; or she can ask the public to back her.

Taken by itself, May’s resignation would do nothing to resolve the Brexit crisis. Labour could call a vote of no confidence in the government, hoping to trigger an election. But if the Tories agree on anything, it is that they do not want to face the electorate. Such a motion would almost certainly fail, changing nothing. All responsible people agree, meanwhile, that the second option – an off-the-cliff no deal – would be a catastrophe. In fact, it is not an option at all.
That leaves a second referendum as the only sensible, logical course offering a path out of the Brexit morass. The choice on the ballot should be simple, between May’s deal – according to her, the best and only one available – and the status quo, meaning Brexit would be cancelled. Article 50 would be suspended while the vote was held. Parliament, which overwhelmingly endorsed the 2016 referendum result, would be honour-bound to accept this people’s vote, too.

Etc


For Remainers, there is the obvious risk that May and the Leavers could prevail.
There’s one way out of this morass, but politicians must rise to the challenge

Fat chance with this mob in power I bet.

Do you two have each others babies?

No.

When was your last pregnancy?

It seems to me like TM is moving to unite the country by now backing a clean break rather than break faith by holding another referendium.

If that is the case, hopefully the majority of MP`s will give her their full backing now that Hunt a remainer, has started to move towards a clean cut Brexit.

If she had done this sooner she may not have lost her chance to take the Tory Party undr her leadership into the next election in 2022.

CT, You seriously think that people will forget the last 2 1/2 years of probably the worst Government in the history of Governments?...Dream on I think the expression is.

If you think the tories are bad, look at those that want to be in power. Nightmare.

Stan if people can forget about the blunders that Diane Abbott keeps making - Clueless when it comes to maths and slow as a snail. Watch these and have a chuckle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Syo86gsHk

Don't change the subject CT just answer my question.

2nd referendum
apart from the obvious objections to this, the other problem would still remain in the event that it was another close(ish) vote with the winning margin still just 4% in either direction

what then?
the same issues would remain, and if anyone thinks the labour party is anywhere near united on the brexit issue, then they are even more deluded

As usual Alf for you outers your lack of short term wrong assumptions lets you down yet again.

in what way?
and please do not forget that i have never been a rabid in either direction

What was your question Stan? :-)

What do you mean never been a rabid in either direction, pull the other one.

OK here go's:

"2nd referendum
apart from the obvious objections to this, the other problem would still remain in the event that it was another close(ish) vote with the winning margin still just 4% in either direction"

a) Objections? what are they and who are objecting?

b) What other problem?

c) We use the "first past the post" system so as most people understand it who ever gets at by at least one vote more than the rest then they carry the vote, not the best method of defining an general election of referendum but if as a Country we want a fairer one we will have to bring in something like proportionate representation.

Over to you.

Saturday Night Live skit sends up Theresa May's Brexit woes



‘No one likes me,’ says dancing PM in sketch featuring Matt Damon as David Cameron



Josh Halliday

Sun 16 Dec 2018 18.00 GMT









The whole thing is here inc the vid: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/16/saturday-night-live-skit-sends-up-theresa-mays-brexit-woes

Looks more like Hilary Clinton to me. Maybe finally being locked up..

TM appears to be resolute in preventing a second referendum, which is largely being called for by Remain losers. Good for her, democracy will mean diddley squat if that happens.

An earlier post indicates the Remoaners want a vote on a) TM's deal or b) staying in, how absurd, both options keep us in the customs union. 17.4million people voted to Leave, neither options satisfy that.

any 2nd referendum - i very much hope there will not be one, as to me, that cuts across the whole voting procedure we have had in this country for centuries - will still leave swathes of people across the country very unhappy indeed

more to the point, in the event that there is a "remain" majority of any size, and that in itself is far from certain, then the clear wishes of the majority in the 1st referendum are likely to be arbitrarily binned