I am afraid TFC and myself rather highjacked the CHP thread on this subject, so have started a proper one.

Will cut and paste as necessary from CHP, where our opposing stances are self-apparent

surely driver, the far left (as you like to term yourself) is not exempt from having views, whether for moderation and acceptance or annihilation and genocide per "your" messrs Stalin and Mao?

Hmmmm.
Random thoughts. I love a good argument.
As per the war thread, there is a bit of muddled thinking. There are 2 debates. The moral and the political. These are very different. The moral debate is about the nature of who we should offer a home to and who we should not. Whether a group has a culture so alien to ours as to appear "wrong". The political debate is a simple economic one. Do we benefit?
Economically, of course we do. But it is the unmeasurable cost of the "black" economy that makes this ripe grounds for an argument. Does the real cost outweigh the visible benefit? I believe it probably does.
Interesting that some should argue the benefits seen in Australia etc., but these countries deny any benefit at all to migrants until after a qualifying period of residency. A route I would urge the UK to follow.
Morally, there is an argument that our culture is being attacked and wrecked, though I think this comes from the weird and wonderful social worker world of PC, rather than from the immigrants themselves.
The Chinese are a great example of a people who have settled without causing massive ripples, as are the jews, but of late the Asian communities and Afro-Carribean communities appear to be asking for / granted a disproportionate voice.
The more our way of life is "adjusted" to make sure that these groups are not alienated, the more the general population will revile them and react against them with what appear to be far right motives. These are not evil people with dodgy motives, they are ordinary middle-englanders who want their country as it was in days gone by.
Alan

there is and always has been a tendency to view the past through rose coloured specs, whereas the reality was almost invariably much nastier than we would like to think.

skin colour is easily identifiable, so anyone (or group) who is non-white who challenges our set ideas or mores becomes an easy target for fear = hate.

similar applies or has applied to any group that keeps itself to itself, especially as many will speak in tongues we do not understand ..... incidentally, that was the reason behind the forming of rhyming slang and many other non-standard "dialects" - i.e. to maintain exclusivity or to identify an accepted member of "that gang".

the jews, chinese, asians, afro-caribs etc etc have all initially been ghetto-ised, either willingly - i.e. wanting the comfort of their own "tribe" - or unwillingly - i.e. the "natives" wanting the aliens excluded.

it takes at least 2/3 generations for these barriers to be broken down, though there is a counter-argument that this leads to a loss of historic and cultural heritage and strength.

as third generation English-Ashkenazi (both sets of grandparents came from Poland), I actually feel somewhat somewhat uncomfortable in heavily Jewish accented surroundings ..... my children (and I) went to "normal" schools and i have rejected the approaches of my local rabbi, lovely guy though he is ..... my children all have goyim (non-jewish!) girl/boyfriends ... but for all that, they still know they are Jewish and i hope i would never deny that myself.

sorry for that ramble, but i guess it merely underlines that on balance i think immigration, albeit with it some sensible and necessary controls, is a great bonus to any nation.

i also retain an awareness that racism in its most rabid and destructive forms lies just beneath the surface of all societies.

Just came across this interesting thread with its diversity of views some of which are barely legal.It seems to me that immigration over the years has added immensely to our country in many ways ,the strength of the economy, cultural enrichment, education , healthcare ,finance & banking ,invention,science and in just about any field you care to think about.

However several points are worthy of mention as to why we are even having this debate now :

1.The sheer scale of the current (last 10 years?) wave of immigration seems to surpass any of the earlier periods of mass immigration and the numbers themselves are creating huge problems in the localised areas in which the immigration is concentrated, shortages of housing ,school places, and medical facilities are resulting in an understandable build up of resentment among the indiginous population.

2. In the past the immigrants who came were possessed of a strong work ethic often coupled with entreprenuerial flair.They also came here as genuine refugees fleeing Hitler ,Idi Amin etc. or at the express invitation of our country to fill the many jobs which for interesting reasons were available and unfillable at the time.A significant minority of the present immigrants are here not by invitation nor indeed are they fleeing any particular tyrant but are merely economic migrants who call themselves asylum seekers.Many of these are indeed the dregs and criminals of their own societies,why should we expect any different when they get here?

3. The weakness of our own system both judicial and welfare provides a unique situation which people like this can exploit to their own ends.
the current mess will only be resolved when these weaknesses are corrected.
I suggest withdrawing from the European Human Rights Act maybe a good start.

When we find a way of controlling both the number and quality of person we allow here and when we find the strength to deal with the criminal element which causes a disproportionate amount of problems and when we can do all this without being accused of racism,only then will we get any where.

There is no logic to indiscriminate immigration into the UK, the Government should only allow immigration that we need, skilled or non skilled. It seems in recent years immigration has been allowed without any thought to the infrastucture the overcrowding or environmental impact on our small country.

In recent years I have found the South East of England becoming an unbearable over populated place to work and live. Hence that's why I now live in South West France.

It's interesting the amount of times that Various Europeans that I meet seem alway's to ask about the madness that's happening in the UK. They seem just as concerned as the Brits, and even more concerned about the same situation happening in their country.

French Connection. Interesting to see that you lived near Brive (Two good golf courses), I'm about 50 Minutes from you towards Perigueux. C'est tres chaud aujourdhui.

Immigration as enriched our Society?...... LOL, certainly not mine, I dont even get the vote now as its not worth the trouble turning up as the big majority in my ward are muslims and vote for the muslim labour guy, not because they believe in his politics but because they believe in his religion....... its a farce. (and I normally vote labour)

Not only that but I have lost the benefits of CHOICE.

Once where there was a Butchers shop a fish and chip shop a deli and bread shop stand asian takeaways and a asian grocery store, but theres no bacon ham or british type foods sold.

What was my local bookmakers is now an asian womens wear shop.

Some say move out of the district, but why should I. My familys been here for over 80 odd years.

I have nothing against other races as long as they integrate into the traditional British life (whats left of it) but most incomers seem hell bent on trying to get us to change to their cultures and customs.

Well worth reading this from Rose George the award winning author who as no race/political agenda.......

Dewsbury diary, part 2

In my ventures around town, I end up on a bench near Percy Jubbs fish stall in Dewsbury Market, marvelling at the bustle. The market is still famous enough to be a destination for coach trips. A trader tells me there are 350 stalls on Wednesdays and Saturdays, and a waiting list for spaces. The Hayes family tripe stall still operates as it has done for a hundred years, though now they have a fridge, when once the cows stomach linings and heels already cooked, just add vinegar were brought in barrels packed with ice. The people at the stall are either gaping with disgust or buying the stuff. Toffee Smiths sweet stall is busy, as is the man who sells biscuits singly, if you want, out of big boxes. But there are more Asian stalls than there used to be and more Asians shopping. Dewsburys population is now more than 30 per cent Asian, but during Ramadan, a trader tells me, takings drop by more than that.

I have lunch with a local newspaperman in the West Riding, part of Dewsbury Station and the best pub in the country. Dewsbury is a mess, he says. He is not optimistic about its future. I ask him whats wrong with it. I say it seems successful, as societies go, and particularly one with two different peoples trying to share the same town. He shakes his head. Whats wrong with Dewsbury? Race, political correctness, drugs. Hes got more than a hundred members of his family here. Hes well known, respected. But now he wants to leave.

The next day, over another pint, a local pharmacist says much the same thing. There is a veneer of culture here, he says, But underneath theres criminality. A lot of it. I suppose I could have guessed that. My parents house has been burgled with increasing frequency. Recently, theyve been finding used syringes in the garden. When I left Dewsbury, there was virtually no heroin. Now, there is as much as you need, and more. Dewsbury has more addicts than Huddersfield, and they are younger. A former heroin user says that 12-year-olds are on it now, and that even he finds that shocking.

The pharmacist supplies addicts with methadone, and he has seen their numbers increase. When the Taliban released their stockpiles in the early 1990s, thats when it started. Now, its 10 a bag. The kids who used to get blotto on alcohol now dont bother its cheaper to be on heroin. In Ravensthorpe, half a mile from Dewsbury, J., who runs a drop-in centre for addicts and their parents, is bringing up her grandchildren, because her son and daughter are both addicts. In the Victorian town hall one day, I go to the launch of the Luke & Marcus Trust, set up by two white middle-class women whose sons overdosed. A white-collar worker tells me her niece buys her two sons a bag each a day, rather than have them stealing to get it.

Still, prices are now so low that robberies have decreased. J.s son, D., turns up and talks freely about his habit: hes on methadone and hoping to come off it soon. He tells me that all those fireworks going off in all months and at all times of day, which I attributed to an odd fetish for daylight fireworks, signify that a shipment of heroin has arrived. He says that ten years ago, at the same time as the bedding industry kicked off, the heroin would arrive with cotton fibres embedded in it. I hear this rumour from plenty of non-drug-users, too. He says hes not surprised my parents find syringes in their garden, because three of the biggest dealers live a couple of streets away. They are organised, he says, and competitive. They have laminated calling cards. One pair call themselves William and Harry. I am a bit dazed by this. Are those their real names? No, D. says. Theyre Asian, arent they? Nearly all of them are.

I ask one of the Asian councillors about it. Young people in our community are involved in this terrible business, he says, uncomfortably. We have a collective responsibility to be open about it. I ask the pharmacist about it. I did a straw poll of my clients. Out of forty, only one didnt have a dealer who was Asian. I ask the chief of police about it. Absolutely not, he says. Dealers are all sorts. You are totally, totally wrong. He frowns. Youre coming at this from the race angle, arent you? He warns me not to ruin months, years, of careful community cohesion-building. He doesnt say it, but I know that saying such things also plays into the hands of the BNP, who enjoy scaremongering about Asian narco-terrorists. (Nick Griffin said on his Heckmondwike trip that Asian womens bones were crumbling under their burqas for lack of sunlight.)

You think Im racist, dont you? D. says, after telling me about young Asian lads he knows who drive Lexuses, but who have no obvious jobs. I can see youre thinking that. But its not about racism. I used to go on Rock against Racism marches. My best friend is an Asian lad called Bashir. Its not the race, its this generation. They are full of hate. Now when I go to my doctors in Savile Town I get called a white bastard.

J. has lived in Ravensthorpe for 33 years. We never had any problems. We lived quite happily side by side. Its not the community, its this generation. They call you goura white person. I love it here, she says. I did love it here. She says council funding is allotted unfairly. She says indigenous whites feel neglected, and if they complain, they get called racist. They spent millions on this area, but on one street of privately-owned houses. Not a single English-owned house.

Such resentment may be unfounded, but its corrosive. Councillor Khizar Iqbal prides himself on not ignoring it, and on speaking publicly about the councils culture of political correctness. One perception, Iqbal says, is that there is an unfair distribution of funding. That is not a fact. The council doesnt spend millions on Asian estates and nothing on white ones. But it is too busy promoting black and Asian issues. We need that, but they also have a responsibility not to encourage these negative perceptions.

In another council meeting, when regeneration money was voted for an overwhelmingly Asian estate, Iqbal said it created a damaging impression. I was called a racist! he laughs. But they applauded me. He is tired, he says, of the council reinforcing prejudices, for example, that Savile Town is dole-dependent. We have doctors, businessmen, professionals. There are millionaires living here! He wants everyone black, Asian, white, whatever to be dealt with on merit. Things changed when the council started interfering, the Dewsbury Reporters Margaret Watson says. Positive discrimination. People say Asians are the most deprived and all that but then theres all this positive discrimination. This, she thinks, is the reason for most of those 5066 BNP votes. You would not believe who voted BNP. People youd never expect. They are so sick of everything. It was a protest vote. There were bigots in those five thousand, says the newspaperman, but most of it was giving two fingers to Kirklees Council, to Labour, to everything. Still, I think, there must be better ways to stick it to the establishment than voting for Holocaust-deniers. Even if it means the Liberal Democrats.

Its all getting a bit dispiriting. I go for lunch at a large primary school, where the ethnicity factor, as Kirklees Council calls it, is 87 per cent. I get cheese quiche, something called tutti-frutti sponge pudding, and an education. People think a high ethnicity factor means a lot of problems, the headteacher says. There are problems children who have to struggle to learn English while theyre learning in English, seven-year-olds who are their parents translators but less than youd think. The headteachers previous school was a large inner-city one. I was told to fuck off on my first day. By the parents. Here, Ive never heard that. Its the first place Ive worked where parents ask me how I am, and actually want to know. He gives me a tour of the school, to prove that its a quiet, hardworking place. It is. I lose count of the bilingual support workers, mentors and learning assistants.

After the bombings, the Asian parents were shocked, the head teacher says. But he thought things had settled down, until three sets of white parents said they were moving their children elsewhere. He was surprised: the school has had good inspections, is well-rated and harmonious. There are no children sitting in assembly with their hands over their ears, as happens elsewhere. No one has chosen to exclude their children from assembly or RE lessons. Christmas is celebrated though Jesus is referred to as a prophet, not the son of God and so is Ramadan. Still, the three families turned up, somewhat embarrassed, and said their kids were transferring to St Paulinus, the local Catholic school. J. told me that her 14-strong family are all Protestants except her youngest. Shes Catholic, J. says, as the girl saunters past. So she can go to St Paulinus.

It is perhaps ironic that Dewsburys historic icon is now used as a way to escape the towns modern reality. I escape again too, in the end, despite a brief fantasy of buying a flat on the site of my Dads mill. The thought of living in the weaving shed, or in the rooms where I spent a summer folding scarves is compelling. But only for a moment.


This diary appeared in the London Review of Books. Copyright Rose George 2005.

16/11/2005

GF,
Like you, I live close to Dewsbury, on the outskirts of leeds.
I can testify to the above, very interesting, article and its tale of asian ghettos.
Parts of Dewsbury and Bradford are a hell hole. At my previous home, the local postmaster was a Pakistani Muslim and he lived in dewsbury. We would discuss our favourite eating houses, as Bradford has a fine tradition of excellent curry houses. For many of my favourites he would shrug and say he could never visit them as they were in the wrong part of Dewsbury or Bradford.
When I enquired why it turned out that he was the wrong kind of Asian or wrong kind of Muslim for that area and that if he were seen there after dark he would be lucky to escape with his life. His clothing and beard gave him away.
Apparantly this is quite a frequent occurance, but little reported to police. We have our own family ways of dealing with this he told me.
My thought is that this is perhaps why Asian communities are ghetto-ised.
Certainly the Jewish areas of Leeds could never be described as a Ghetto, and much the same could be said for the Chinese quarters. The West Indian areas were, about 25 years ago, but no longer.
Caste / race / religion above community has absolutely no place in this country and where it exists, it is propounded more by the immigrant population than by the indiginous one.
Just my opinion.
Alan

lots and lots to which i shall try to respond later, and certainly when i have the time ..... much with which i take issue, though some valid points too .... at least just calm observation instead of rabid rabble-rousing

Just to add a few issues regarding the English way of life, such as forced marriages and Fathers killing their daughters for bringing dishonour to the family.

Women treated as 2nd class citizens, were men can have affairs but not women

ALDWICKK - the tone of your post implies that you believe your statement applies (almost) exclusively to the Muslim population ...... you could not be more wrong.

arranged marriages are much more common throughout all society than you care to think, and always have been ...... and of course no one can condone murder for perceived dishonour, but that i think is pretty rare even among the world's Muslim community; in the UK it is headline stuff when it happens, and far far rarer than other murders perpetrated for no apparent reason at all.

similarly, the view with regard to affairs or similar has always been so, though that differential is perhaps slowly and quite rightly (imo) being eroded.

Hi Alan,

I actually live in and was born in a district of Huddersfield but all the things you mention as does Rose George stand up here.

Strange but I liken the Asian community now as to what the West Indian community was 10 to 15 years ago. The afro carribeans seem to have moved on a great deal and seem to have lifted that big chip off their shoulders.

In part I believe its due to a lot of young lads getting chances with the Big football teams and the exposure it gets on TV and in the media. I think they realise that they do have chances in modern Britain and arent hell bent on pushing their culture on us.

ALAN - your Asian postmaster's experience is not confined to this country or his religion/race ...... there are certainly areas in Israel where the ultra-orthodox Hasidim will stone outsiders, even if they are fellow Jews.

I also find your comment re former no-go WI areas .... Are you not therfore admitting that this community has and has been permitted to integrate?

I would also strongly contend that it is the indigenous population who have the obligation and the ability to foster harmony and tolerance ..... however, it is a sad fact of life that the majority of the population is so bigotted and prejudiced and uneducated that anything that falls outside its comfort zone is automatically regarded and treated as alien.

' the majority of the population is so bigotted and prejudiced and uneducated that anything that falls outside its comfort zone is automatically regarded and treated as alien. '

Can you back up that statement with facts. If it was true then the BNP would be the main opposition party.

GOLDFINGER -as succinctly as i can, which i know will leave much unsaid .....

you wrote - "I have nothing against other races as long as they integrate into the traditional British life (whats left of it) but most incomers seem hell bent on trying to get us to change to their cultures and customs."

I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still.


Heroin and general drug abuse - this is not a modern let alone sudden phenomenon ..... no one is forced to turn to drugs; it is a choice ..... to blame the increase in usage on a certain sector of the community cannot be justified, for if there was no demand there would be no sale ...... if certain areas of the country have more Asian dealers than white, then that is a reflection of the social mix in that area, just as around here and in many other parts of the country, the dealers are white (Christians!), or in the various Chinese enclaves they are Chinese etc etc.

your interesting article says - "Its the first place Ive worked where parents ask me how I am, and actually want to know. He gives me a tour of the school, to prove that its a quiet, hardworking place. It is. I lose count of the bilingual support workers, mentors and learning assistants."

I write - is that not proof that at least some communities are doing their very best to integrate? ..... you can't have it both ways!

No Cynic,
It is not the responsibility of the indiginous population. It is firmly the responsibilty of the migrants. As we often hear at work, FIFO.
They have come here, I presume, because the conditions are more satisfactory. Please leave them as such. We have a wonderful culture and heritage, of tolerance and success. Of teaching and welcoming. Of offering opportunity to all and prejudice to none.
Uneducated does not wash. I am virtually uneducated, and happy to admit such. I am also very tired of the instant reply of bigot, idiot or racist when I express concerns over our towns and cities, and the areas where the indigenous population live as refugees in their own country. These areas exist and are caused by the nonsense approach of the soft handed liberals who foisted decades of statute on us making any reference to creed, colour or religion an offence.
Multi-culturalism does not, and never will work. We must acceept and respect those differences, but also conclude that any nation must have an over riding identity and a dominant culture, for if it does not, then it is not a nation at all, for it has no common interest outside of money. It is a loose collection of people chasing more for less.
if that opinion makes me an uneducated bigot, then I am happy to wear that badge as one of honour.
alan

Multi-culturalism does not, and never will work.

That is an untenable statement ...... The population of GB is multi-cultural by definition and has been for the last 1000 years and more! ...... are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Chinese, Asians, WIs, Jews etc still deemed to be "aliens" in your eyes? ...... you seem to be saying as much

Just a few points to move this discussion on a bit.
Firstly it would seem a few people here are sitting in foreign countries as immigrants, yet pumping their gums about immigration at home. No offense intended, but double standards???
Secondly, the tendancy for immigrants to stick within their own communities is natural, as it provides security for themselves in a strange environment. The british abroad are no exception & in many areas the british ex-pat community are the worst in adhering to their own customs & way of life, shunning the ways of 'foreigners'.
One last point I would make is that immigrants in this country fill many of the jobs which should be filled by our own indigenous population. But, surprise, surprise, it has been found that the younger immigrants work harder & for less money than our own british counterparts.
I agree that the U.K. gangs are of predominately Asian or Afro-Caribbean origin, but shame on our own system which allows them to operate without check. But, France is the same with huge North African immigration & subsequent ghettos & gang wars. Germany has it's Turkish immigrants, Italy the constant influx from the Balkans etc etc. However, the 'scum' element is a tiny minority, thankfully.
All imo of course, but lets not blame the jews for everything! They seem to be running Gibraltar without any problems.

thanks Harry, though it has often been said that the Jews are a persecuted race because they damn well deserve to be and would not know what to do with themselves or their humour, if they were not!

I should actually have mentioned in my own ramblings that an open-door policy for immigration is a recipe for disaster

Truly scholarly postings from Alan6 and G/F, Spitfire and Aldwick . . All based on cold hard facts and their OWN personnel expieriences ; and as such " straight from the horses mouth " . NOT mere theorizing !! ...Heres a little gem for you all . Recently a Lancashire town called Blackburn was ordered by Blairs central govt to house 400 Armenians .The local coucil and city planners were utterly horrrified as housing units, healthcare ,and adequate ammenities simply did not exist to serve their needs .. BUT !!!! The most vociferous and violent opposition to the Armenians came from uppity racist Pakistani residents/immigrants who claimed this area was there " patch " to do as they so wished ...EG Sell drugges , stimulate prostitution and impose their idiosyncracies on the indigineous population . ln addition they weakly claimed their women folk were not safe from Armenian men !! Touche' A tad ironic considering this tiny island has no room for such types, , and the manner in which they percieved the influx of Armenians is much the same as we view them !!! Have they no shame ???...They have some nerve . Their effing " patch " indeed ..Their "patch" is usually inntermitent soujourns in Armly gaol in LEEDS and with good reason , .They are a potential "time bomb" and the clock is ticking . ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................lncidentally Cynic this is 2007 and not the post war 1950's when the UK was economically on its knees, manpower was short ,and the govt was too busy paying back the usa for war debt from the Marshall plan to bother itself with the future ramifications of mass immigration . ....................................Driver ....The Left are finished,/ And anyway you in the UK havent even got a left of centre party ... Thankfully. Even liberal Holland has lurched to th`e right after a zealot from the middle east murdered a prominent journalist . .Even countries like the Ukraine , Poland , Belarus, Latvia.Lithuania , Slovakia,The Czech republic, and a host of Eastern Europeons were glad to thow off the shackles of the Left ..........Orwel put that leftish hoary fable to bed ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ ..

TFC .... would be interested to hear your (brief!) views on my post 26 which could equally apply to France