Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Never wrote that it did directly. But there is an indirect effect. (Oil prices.) Spread bets. I use them occasionally. But if you try hard enough you probably can get one on the colour of your bowel movement.

But what I am aware of, is the attempts to suppress debate of the Gaza situation in the media.

If that happens, it will explode again and Israel will lose more of the few friends it still has.

rf - please don't criticise this thread - Freddy is an entertaining diversion, far removed from all the sensible stuff we have to deal with on a finance BB.

Give the fool his oxygen.

I give up, sigh !, (for the moment) I'm off to monitor the sp's.....you are just like a politician !.

Remind me of "why won't they let Israel join the UNSC?"

The very democratic process of the muslim veto at every attempt so don't expect a balanced view from the UN.

For those who missed this.

Interesting!

http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKTRE5480Y920090513?feedType=nl&feedName=uktopnewsearly

Pope in West Bank calls for Palestinian state
Wed May 13, 2009 2:48pm BST

By Philip Pullella and Mohammad Assadi
BETHLEHEM, West Bank (Reuters) - Pope Benedict witnessed the watchtowers and high walls that seal Bethlehem off from Jerusalem on Wednesday as he entered the Israeli-occupied West Bank and pressed his call for a Palestinian state.
The papal convoy drove slowly through three big steel gates in the fortified barrier of towering concrete slabs which Israel began building between the two holy cities in 2002, to stop a wave of deadly Palestinian bomb attacks.
A warm welcome greeted him along the steep, ancient streets of the town where Jesus Christ was born, from Palestinians gathered in anticipation of hearing the leader of the world's 1.1 billion Catholics back their independence aspirations.
Cheers of "Long Live the Pope, Long Live Palestine" rose up as Benedict began his first visit to Bethlehem as pontiff.

"The Holy See supports the right of your people to a sovereign Palestinian homeland in the land of your forefathers, secure and at peace with your neighbours, within internationally recognised borders," he told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas at a ceremony shortly after crossing from Israel.
The two-state solution is supported by Abbas, Arab nations and Western powers. But the new Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has declined so far to endorse it. This will be a focus of his talks next week with U.S. President Barack Obama.
In his address, Abbas denounced Israel's "apartheid wall" as part of efforts by the Jewish state to drive Palestinian Christians and Muslims from the Holy Land.
The Palestinian president spoke of "oppression, tyranny and land expropriation" and said Palestinians wanted a future with "no occupation, no checkpoints, no walls, no prisoners, no refugees."
Palestinians were fervently hoping that the pope, too, would call for the removal of the wall.
MANGER SQUARE MASS
A Palestinian flag nearly the size of a building hung before the pope as he said Mass for about 5,000 people in Manger Square, next to the Church of the Nativity that marks the spot where Christians believe Jesus was born in a stable.
Applause broke out when he expressed concern for Palestinians in the Hamas Islamist-ruled Gaza Strip, where over 1,000 were killed in an Israeli offensive in January. He said he was praying that Israel's embargo on Gaza "will soon be lifted."
It was strange, he said, that Bethlehem was associated with the joy and renewal of Jesus's birth "yet here in our midst, how far this magnificent promise seems from being realised."
The square was packed with Palestinian Christians and some had tears in their eyes as the pope arrived.
"There are fewer and fewer of us Palestinian Christians but we have strength," said Kandra Zreineh, a 45-year-old mother of four from a village near Bethlehem. "We are proud to have this visit because we are small and I believe he may be able to make a difference for us. I still believe in miracles."
Thousands of Christians have left Bethlehem since a Palestinian uprising erupted in 2000. It was met with an Israeli security clampdown and the construction of the barrier, which cripples freedom of movement.
Abbas, who like most Palestinians is Muslim, described the hardships faced by his people, including the tens of thousands of Christians whose community is shrinking through emigration.
"On this Holy Land, there are those who continue to build separation walls, instead of bridges, and who try with the occupation forces to compel both Christians and Muslims alike to leave the country," the Palestinian leader said.
Israel's actions in the name of security were changing holy places "into mere archaeological sites, rather than places of worship, alive and bustling with believers."
"Jerusalem ... is surrounded by the apartheid wall which prevents our people from the West Bank from reaching the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and al-Aqsa Mosque," he added.
In his arrival address, Benedict acknowledged Israel's security concerns as well as Palestinian suffering, and urged people not to "resort to acts of violence or terrorism."
A full day of events in the West Bank may relieve Vatican officials of the strains that have dogged the German pope in Jerusalem, where Israeli leaders have complained that he did not express enough empathy and regret in remarks he made on Monday at the Yad Vashem memorial to the Jewish dead of the Holocaust.
The pope is due to hold a mass in Nazareth, where Jesus grew up, before flying back to the Vatican on Friday.
(Additional reporting by Reuters Jerusalem and Bethlehem staff; Editing by Douglas Hamilton)

What relevance does the pope have?

He is the leader of a group of people who illogically believe in a supernatural being akin to Father Christmas. Why do we take any notice of him and other religious leaders? It must be time for moire states to become secular. There is no need to supress religion nor is there to give it any offocial recognition. Why does the taxpayer subsidise religious schools, give private religious schools tax breaks etc. We are in effect encouraging and supporting the passing on of the brainwashing of children.

if you want a nice balanced view of why it is so difficult for the real populace to secure peace in M/E, get a pic from the front page of today's Gulf News .... big photo entitled "Palestinians mark 61st anniversary of Nakba" ..... DYOR!

Not a good year 1948.

for wine, no but for israel and india (1947), something of a landmark ..... for the palestinians, nothing like the tragedy that the shit-stirrers would like to promote

Bad year for the Palestinians. It wasn't till 1948 that state of Israel as an independent state was established. It was a bad thing then and still is now. The conflict in that area will continue for generations till Isreal makes major changes.

one-sided blame then?

Cynic,

No. But the position, that Israel is taking to a to another group of human beings ie. the Palestinians, is abusive their human rights.

This is being done, due to their present superiority as a group, by the use of force. I think support from America for this balance of force or power is on the wane. (Probably, due to the raising of political levies via the internet etc..)


To my mind, the abuse being shown is similar to that shown in Germany in the 30s, where those of the Jewish Faith or association were abused. You use of language against a group of people or ideas you disagree with seems to me to be very similar to the expressions used to ferment ant-Semitism and hatred in that period. The difference being that the abuse by some factions in Israel and outside Israel, is that it is at another grouping of human beings. (Palestinians, Arabs etc..)

The abuse of Palestinians rights has been ongoing since 1947, with the bloody consequences.


The two state solution, may help to resolve large portions of the problems in that area. Perhaps, then with mutual respect, which has to be earned by both sides there may be peace and harmony for all the occupiers of that area of the world.

This would be beneficial to all sides in the present debacle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah......heard it all before........destroy Israel, slaughter the Jews ALL "THEIR" FAULT.....solve the world's problems......typical nazi and anti-semitic filth.....bad thing to have a country Jews can go to, but good thing to have a country for Palestinians to go to..........no no no that's not being two faced.....sure sure sure...too much hate mongering dressed up as "reason".
WTF is wrong with a country for Indians to go to if they choose, or Pakistanis or Israelis or Palestinians.....it's called self-determination and sovereignty.....freedom to choose.
No the time of the BNP nazi filth AND THEIR FELLOW TRAVELLERS is NOT coming, at least it would have to be over my dead body.

Not anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic, just anti-Israel. No one is interested in Jewish people as a race havving a country. They all have and have had countries that they come and came from. Isreal is no homeland for them, despite being pronounced so. Israel was happy to abide by the UN resolution that aprtitioned Palestine in 1947, but ignore all other UN resolutions since then. Perhaps at the very least they might like to move back to the 1947 layout of the map.

Even in the Balfour Declaration, which predates the UN resolution by many years there was a line inserted,

"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".[

There was to be no mass exodus of Jews to Israel and the existing Palestinians were to be protected.

I am afraid that Mrc Charts has got on his high horse once again (the horse gettig higher and higher). No one said slaughter the Jews and I am as anti BNP, NF, NAZI etc as anyone you could meet. I just don't like Israel and the way they behave. It wouldn't matter if they were Christians, I still wouldn't like them. I have Jewish friends who want nothing to do with Israel.

I notice a story referred to on the front page of the Jewish Chronicle

"The troubling questions that remain after Gaza
How those uneasy with Israeli actions can continue to support the country."

[From The Jewish Chronicle
Rabbi Jonathan Wittenberg
May 7, 2009]

The war in Gaza leaves many wounds, the grief of the bereaved, the pain of the wounded and the trauma of the displaced on both sides.

Among those wounds may be one of another kind, a profound moral injury, to Israeli society and to Jewish ethics. Israel has to fight terror because terror declared war on us, wrote Major General Amos Yadlin in 2004 in a key text updating the Israeli Armys moral code of purity of arms to include the impossible issues faced in trying to combat terror. Hamas, like Hizbollah, is a terrible enemy; its charter calls for Israels annihilation. Perhaps the Gaza conflict should be seen as a war of despair: how can Israel defend itself against the threat of rockets everywhere? But that doesnt answer all the questions about the conduct of the war, or the blockade which preceded it.

At a recent seminar organised by RenCassin, the Jewish human rights organisation, Israeli Physicians For Human Rights presented its published report. Allegations about Israelis prosecution of the war included: the use of white phosphorous over densely populated areas; using bombs which spread sharp discs on explosion, causing terrible injuries; employing weapons lacking sufficient precision in civilian areas; frequent shooting at ambulances and the killing of ambulance personnel; the dreadful treatment of resident families by soldiers; attacks on non-combatants.

Hamas is clearly guilty of many of these charges, the indiscriminate firing of thousands of rockets on civilians, the use of human shields, the tactics of fighting, and hiding, in a civilian population. It is argued that there was no other way to fight them without costing countless lives of soldiers. In its own report the IDF acknowledges mistakes and expresses regret for civilian deaths. Plenty of armies fail to do that.

But Ehud Baraks claim that the probe once again proves that the IDF is one of the most moral armies in the world hasnt satisfied many questions within Israel itself. The conduct of IDF soldiers is governed by the ethical code of purity of arms. These principles, in line with international humanitarian law, are notoriously difficult to apply when fighting an organisation like Hamas. But the appalling devastation in Gaza has risked making a travesty of them, and evidence suggests that this cannot all be blamed on Hamas. An independent inquiry is urgently needed; there are issues demanding redress.

For someone like me, who loves Israel, the evidence adduced by PHR-Israel is devastating to contemplate. It recalls David Grossmans recent image of the two sides like foxes tied together by their tails carrying a blazing torch of destruction. A challenging Chasidic interpretation reconfigures the Torahs injunction to remember Amalek, the epitome of Israels worst enemies, to mean Dont let anyone make you into Amalek.

I feel challenged both as a Jew and as a lover of Israel. I find it hard to say, as some do, that such deeds must simply be accepted as the price of being a country like all others. The root and fountain of Jewish ethics lies in the principle that every human being without distinction is created in Gods image. To regard some lives as of lesser value, to reduce them to collateral damage, even under huge provocation, is morally wrong.

Fear, frustration and anger naturally lead one to demonise the other; hence perhaps the shocking T-shirts depicting a pregnant Arab woman with the disgusting slogan that One shot = two kills. The Judaism I believe in, that Judaism which has so often itself been the victim of demonisation, tries to humanise the other. Arik Ascherman of Rabbis For Human Rights expressed the courageous wish for Yom Haatzamaut that we should learn to see the world through the eyes of a single Palestinian, and so reconnect with our own ethical identity. Ive spoken several times to Dr Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish, three of whose daughters were killed, through an acknowledged mistake by Israel, in Gaza. He said, with a simple wisdom extraordinarily free of anger, We must remember our shared humanity. That is the foundation of all religious ethics.

The war in Gaza has strengthened those who hate Israel already. It has re-awoken slumbering antisemitism, in places to terrifying levels.

But it has also aroused powerful feelings in many who love Israel. What do we say and do? I know nowhere else in the world where there is so much altruism and idealism per square mile, so much effort to promote dialogue and understanding. Yet Israel today is also being defined by house demolitions, settler violence, blatant racism and policies of sometimes indiscriminate retribution. Its not just young people who feel challenged; some whove cared about the country for a life-time feel close to despair. Many Jews are afraid of talking about Israel, even to each other, for fear of being branded for their views.

The answer doesnt lie in joining Israels enemies, in ceasing to care, or in turning a blind eye. That, too, may prove a way of assisting in Israels destruction. Nor should we stop defending Israel when it is reviled. The issue is how to show commitment to Israel, despite, or sometimes through, challenging some of its actions.

We need to combine faithfulness to our people with loyalty to Jewish values. Countless Israelis struggle courageously for social justice, for equality for all citizens, for excellent universal medical provision, to build educational bridges between Jews and Muslims, to create an infrastructure for the peace which we pray must come. This is where we, individually and communally, should commit our money, presence and effort. Otherwise we let Israel, and Judaism, down.

"Isreal is no homeland for them, despite being pronounced so"

Oh yeah? What sort of high horse of self righteous sh*te do you call that?
Why don't you go to Israel and tell the six million population that?
Why don't you go to Yad Vashem and stand there and say that in the memorial to six million people slaughtered because they were Jews ?

What's next? The usual anti-semitic disclaimer, "oh some of my best friends are Jews" and "I know all about Jews I had a neighbour who was one" - yeah yeah yeah.

You hear the same thing about Greeks and Cypriots in Cyprus, Hindus, Sikhs,Christians, Muslims in India/Pakistan, Chinese, Muslims in Malaya, Muslims, Christians in Serbia and the rest of ex-Yugoslavia................all the language of racial or religious or political hatred of one group for another.....tribal primitive sh*te dressed up in polite language at best, torture and mass murder at worst......the mask of "reason" and "debate" slips very easily.......the stench of hatred spreads far and wide and is unmissable.........

Haystack, Thank you for post 1118. I think that sums up my feelings adequately.

I will have an argument about "belief" some other time.

I didn't say "oh some of my best friends are Jews". In fact I can't think of one that is a best friend apart from my best man, but I do do have Jewish friends and several do not support Israel and want nothing to do with it. It is quite possible to be pro Jewish and anti-Israel. As an example, my best man is quite anti-Israel and yet his brother has long gone to live in Israel and is a devout supporter. I don't think that the deaths of 6 million innocent Jews has anything to do with anto-Israel feeling.

You do sound more extreme even than neo-Nazis. Your language is the usual emotive claptrap intended to stifle agrument.

I did not make it clear that the story above was written by the Jewish Chronicle!!!

I have added the following lines to it.

[From The Jewish Chronicle
Rabbi Jonathan Wittenberg
May 7, 2009]

glad i got bored with this thread many weeks ago ...... in dog years, this should run into the next millenium