Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Ok, hands up in the Trader's Room who support Fred's views?

Hands up anyone who actually understands them?

I think Fred you would find that the majority population of Isreal would happliy live with the Palestinians on their doorstep if one they renounced their intent to destroy their state and two, stopped firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas. This of course doesn't even address the issue of suicide bombers, again aimed at the civilian population

Yes, peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan which have lasted for years and gone on to co-operation, trade and much more.

Obviously I am diametrically opposed to Fred's views. I understand the mentality, seen it all before, time and time again........

Spot on, ptholden. Israel has always been willing and proved that they will exchange land for peace and have long accepted that the only solution is a two country one - just as the UN originally decided in 1947 when they split the land into an Israeli state and an Arab one.

Quite honestly I don't see why the Jews shouldn't have a land of their own, just as the Arabs have many states already. Twenty-two in fact. Not to mention numerous other Islamic states which they can run as they wish. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of Muslims who are Israeli Arabs and live in Israel proper. Some may well wish the land was Muslim, but they are not so unhappy as to leave for a Muslim land.

Nobody has a monopoly on right or wrong and no nation is made up of angels, they are made of people. We all feel for those children who have suffered and died in the hell of urban war and a little part of all of us wants to scream out "this must stop - there must be a better way".
Of course there is. It needs Hamas, who even slaughtered their own Fatah brothers in their take over of Gaza, to stop demanding the destruction of Israel with their Iranian backers wanting to "wipe Israel off the map"; to stop rocketing Israeli civilians; to stop brainwashing those poor children with anti-Jewish rhetoric - just try watching Hamas TV.
Security can come with Israel making peace with Gaza just as it did with Egypt and Jordan and will do one day with a Palestinian state on the West Bank and even with Syria.

It's up to Hamas to give up their attacks targeted on Israeli civilians and stop using their own people as pawns and human shields. Israel has said repeatedly, and I believe them, that they want to live in peace in a two state solution.

Mindless parroting of anti-Israel slogans and twisted hate mongering is part of the problem.

Fred

Two threads on this, you have opened a can of worms. It must be keeping you busy. Hope MAM's servers can cope.

I hope you were not claiming I had made a personal attack on you with my post. I cannot see it if I did.

You responded to me by changing my handle even though we have never conversed before. I will take it to be your humour but I believe I simply got your back up. I thought you might be Tabasco. Hes good at the name changing thing.

The west did not accept the, as you call it, democratic election of Hamas because Hamas are considered a terrorist organisation and the election was won in a similar manner to the recent Mugabe one - murder and intimidation of the opposition. Not really democratic is it!

I agree with you that US corruption is far bigger than anything seen in the Middle East but everything is relative isnt it. At least the US has some sort of civilisation. It also helps that the US looks forwards not backwards.

For your information the Palestinians excel at propaganda. They have been perfecting it for decades. As soon as you mentioned the zionist lobby I changed my mind you are not the name changing Tabasco, you are Maestro's dad.

You keep banging on about your view currently being in line with that of the UN. You may have come across this situation in you lifetime or you may not If you cant join the club you dont get a say in how its run Isnt it funny that Israel never becomes a member of the Security Council. Why? Because muslim countries always block it. Even Libya has been in twice. Do you think The UN would have the same view if Israel was a current member?

Ruth mentioned the key words in post 107 she mentioned the dark ages. That part of the world (with the exception of Israel) is still in the dark ages. They are all for destruction and do not create anything but problems.

Many Palestinians became very wealthy by working for Israelis until the recent troubles flared up. The entire region could have prospered. It was such a (intentionally) missed opportunity.

In my opinion, and not because I want to escalate the argument further, this is a battle between SOME Muslims and the West. Israel is simply the front line. If Israel falls all the deities of the world will not be able to help us.

Who is firing rockets during the 3hour aid windows?

Sorry but I am sick of hearing about the suffering of the Palestinians & co. (even though I feel for the innocents caught up in it (on all sides)) This is NOT the fault of the developed world, West, whatever you want to call it. It is a crazy ideology.

I am not an apologist for anyone, this is just how I see it. DYOR etc

Have a good weekend all.

--->ALL

What an interesting thread.

What interesting comments.

Why were Hamas firing rockets at Israel?

Regards,

THE COUNT!

--->ALL

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Regards,

THE COUNT!

GAUSIE -> MR COUNT SIR!!

You been at the retsina?

Nah he's just a slow reader , took him til then to finish reading the MDX thread in the zoo :-)

--->GAUSIE

No, I don't drink that crap.

But I do think that little quote in post 115 says rather a lot about the why's and wherefores of a lot of this. I am just hungry to learn about it all from the very best sources.


--->DIL

What has this got to do with MDX or have you got a leek stuck in an inappropriate orifice at the moment driving you into a bout of momentary madness?

I noticed you made a comment on me about MDX a while back....what has that got to do with me?

Regards,

THE COUNT!

Nothing ... except you told me a few years ago to tuck a few away and I could sue you if it didn't come off , threads on here somewhere but I won't be bothering.

You wanna chill and get your sense of humour back COUNT.

Regards

--->DIL

I thought a leek in the orifice was a display of my sense of humour, in such a way that you might geddit.

Oh, and I'm pretty chilled...in fact, despite the central heating being on, I am still feeling pretty cool.

Regards,

THE COUNT!

For Pholden, Why don't you read what is written, then engage you brain and think of its content before you respond. Your position seems to me that of an unreasoning zealot. I was making an observation and have no allegiance to either party in the present Middle East conflict.

I am not alone in thinking that many of the problems in international politics is due to the patronising positions taken by the present wealthier nations in regard to the smaller and poorer nations.

These countries are often recognisable and supported by racial or religious aspects of those societies as well as geographical. The polarisation of the different groups is often around a racial or religious symbol. As an example, look at the break up of old Yugoslavia, where the genetic base of the country was similar in all areas and the majority of the population were Agnostic. Here politicians, manipulated the people of that country to group ethnically around various totem poles ie Catholic, Orthodox or Moslem. The Moslems were sometimes only recognisable by the variation of surnames, from the other groups. Large numbers each of these groups were integrated by marriage previous to this debacle. I wont go into the political power bases of the various groups. The fragmentation of old Yugoslavia as outcome of the recent war has been of little value to the majority of the people of that country.

Returning to the Middle East.
It is interesting that at the moment that is Israel, previously with the protection of America, continues to try to dictate to the Palestinians what they should do, while not respecting the mandates of the United Nations when applied to themselves. If they start negotiating as equals with mutual respect, it maybe possible to have a lasting peace, which would be beneficial to the Israeli and Palestinian people.

From their own history, the Israel should realise that you cant wipe out or subject another race by primitive violent action. The grievances and problems are there to be resolved.

The majority of the world, is condemning Israel for its disproportionate use of force.

The majority of the humanitarian aid bodies are condemning Israels actions.

If Israel faces up to accepting the United Nations mandates and carries out necessary steps to instigate them, then it is probable that there will be a peace in this area.

The chant of "Hamas" has be firing rockets into Israel for 8years has a certain truth. Perhaps, if the Israelis had negotiated positively and honestly and applied the appropriate mandates during this the 8year period, the situation may not have deteriorated to the present state of affairs.

Fred .... the first part of your post was total rubbish, but at least the last part was sensible .... unfortunately, it is radical politicians, rabble-rousers, and outsiders with vested interest in unrest and worse who always command centre stage

.

--->ALL

The problem is that Israel was created out of various acts of terror carried out against the indigenous population and too against the British forces there.

it was eventually 'legitimised' by a UN resolution, and since then, Israel has chosen to ignore virtually all UN resolutions as a result. But it is always happy to refer to the first one that actually created and 'legitimised' it as a country against the wishes of the indigenous peoples.

It has also been on the receiving end of many billions of dollars of US support/arms, and despite not being a 3rd world country, is the largest recipient of foreign aid from the USA. No other country comes close.

Israel was armed to the teeth by the USA since its creation, and so had the luxury of no longer relying on terrorist acts to get their voices heard and their will enforced.

Nowadays, its forces simply press firing buttons in Apache attack helicopters and in the most modern warplanes in the US arsenal, along with tanks and artillery pieces, and the Palestinians were simply labelled as terrorists as they tried to resist against such overwhelming odds.

They had very good teachers in learning the tactics of terror against their own people. Perhaps people should try and remember Deir Yassin as one example that immediately springs to mind.

This is not quite as simple a war against 'terrorist' Hamas as so many would like to call it.

This is all about a massive injustice perpertrated against the Palestinian people for well over half a century, and by a force so powerful and one sided that it is surprising how they have even managed to resist to this day.

I posted earlier, the quote.....

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

Rather NOT surprisingly, nobody came out to tell us who uttered those very words.

Those words came out of the mouth of David Ben Gurion. I presume most of you know who that was.

Regards,

THE COUNT!

of course DbG (sic! - Ben was not a second christian (lol!) name), great leader as he may have been, has long had his bones turn to dust ..... i also suspect that the quotation is taken out of context, for there are certainly two ways of reading, "They see but one thing ..... " - i.e. the arabs (primarily an agglomeration until very recently of small nomadic tribes) are as bigotted (as the jews) and choose to see but one thing

No I didn't geddit COUNT but you were you were spot on about me having a moment of madness ... recently.

Ask that Welsh flag burning tw*t if you bump into him (preferably whilst driving a steamroller) :-)

All the best.

And u can stuff that where the sun don't shine too Dailos :-)

I have copied this reference again, just in case some have missed. I am glad I am not as isolated in my views as suggested.

Thanks for drawing my attention to it!

Eyes in the back of your head.

http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2008/historical-amnesia-gaza-p1.php