Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

for wine, no but for israel and india (1947), something of a landmark ..... for the palestinians, nothing like the tragedy that the shit-stirrers would like to promote

Bad year for the Palestinians. It wasn't till 1948 that state of Israel as an independent state was established. It was a bad thing then and still is now. The conflict in that area will continue for generations till Isreal makes major changes.

one-sided blame then?

Cynic,

No. But the position, that Israel is taking to a to another group of human beings ie. the Palestinians, is abusive their human rights.

This is being done, due to their present superiority as a group, by the use of force. I think support from America for this balance of force or power is on the wane. (Probably, due to the raising of political levies via the internet etc..)


To my mind, the abuse being shown is similar to that shown in Germany in the 30s, where those of the Jewish Faith or association were abused. You use of language against a group of people or ideas you disagree with seems to me to be very similar to the expressions used to ferment ant-Semitism and hatred in that period. The difference being that the abuse by some factions in Israel and outside Israel, is that it is at another grouping of human beings. (Palestinians, Arabs etc..)

The abuse of Palestinians rights has been ongoing since 1947, with the bloody consequences.


The two state solution, may help to resolve large portions of the problems in that area. Perhaps, then with mutual respect, which has to be earned by both sides there may be peace and harmony for all the occupiers of that area of the world.

This would be beneficial to all sides in the present debacle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah......heard it all before........destroy Israel, slaughter the Jews ALL "THEIR" FAULT.....solve the world's problems......typical nazi and anti-semitic filth.....bad thing to have a country Jews can go to, but good thing to have a country for Palestinians to go to..........no no no that's not being two faced.....sure sure sure...too much hate mongering dressed up as "reason".
WTF is wrong with a country for Indians to go to if they choose, or Pakistanis or Israelis or Palestinians.....it's called self-determination and sovereignty.....freedom to choose.
No the time of the BNP nazi filth AND THEIR FELLOW TRAVELLERS is NOT coming, at least it would have to be over my dead body.

Not anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic, just anti-Israel. No one is interested in Jewish people as a race havving a country. They all have and have had countries that they come and came from. Isreal is no homeland for them, despite being pronounced so. Israel was happy to abide by the UN resolution that aprtitioned Palestine in 1947, but ignore all other UN resolutions since then. Perhaps at the very least they might like to move back to the 1947 layout of the map.

Even in the Balfour Declaration, which predates the UN resolution by many years there was a line inserted,

"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".[

There was to be no mass exodus of Jews to Israel and the existing Palestinians were to be protected.

I am afraid that Mrc Charts has got on his high horse once again (the horse gettig higher and higher). No one said slaughter the Jews and I am as anti BNP, NF, NAZI etc as anyone you could meet. I just don't like Israel and the way they behave. It wouldn't matter if they were Christians, I still wouldn't like them. I have Jewish friends who want nothing to do with Israel.

I notice a story referred to on the front page of the Jewish Chronicle

"The troubling questions that remain after Gaza
How those uneasy with Israeli actions can continue to support the country."

[From The Jewish Chronicle
Rabbi Jonathan Wittenberg
May 7, 2009]

The war in Gaza leaves many wounds, the grief of the bereaved, the pain of the wounded and the trauma of the displaced on both sides.

Among those wounds may be one of another kind, a profound moral injury, to Israeli society and to Jewish ethics. Israel has to fight terror because terror declared war on us, wrote Major General Amos Yadlin in 2004 in a key text updating the Israeli Armys moral code of purity of arms to include the impossible issues faced in trying to combat terror. Hamas, like Hizbollah, is a terrible enemy; its charter calls for Israels annihilation. Perhaps the Gaza conflict should be seen as a war of despair: how can Israel defend itself against the threat of rockets everywhere? But that doesnt answer all the questions about the conduct of the war, or the blockade which preceded it.

At a recent seminar organised by RenCassin, the Jewish human rights organisation, Israeli Physicians For Human Rights presented its published report. Allegations about Israelis prosecution of the war included: the use of white phosphorous over densely populated areas; using bombs which spread sharp discs on explosion, causing terrible injuries; employing weapons lacking sufficient precision in civilian areas; frequent shooting at ambulances and the killing of ambulance personnel; the dreadful treatment of resident families by soldiers; attacks on non-combatants.

Hamas is clearly guilty of many of these charges, the indiscriminate firing of thousands of rockets on civilians, the use of human shields, the tactics of fighting, and hiding, in a civilian population. It is argued that there was no other way to fight them without costing countless lives of soldiers. In its own report the IDF acknowledges mistakes and expresses regret for civilian deaths. Plenty of armies fail to do that.

But Ehud Baraks claim that the probe once again proves that the IDF is one of the most moral armies in the world hasnt satisfied many questions within Israel itself. The conduct of IDF soldiers is governed by the ethical code of purity of arms. These principles, in line with international humanitarian law, are notoriously difficult to apply when fighting an organisation like Hamas. But the appalling devastation in Gaza has risked making a travesty of them, and evidence suggests that this cannot all be blamed on Hamas. An independent inquiry is urgently needed; there are issues demanding redress.

For someone like me, who loves Israel, the evidence adduced by PHR-Israel is devastating to contemplate. It recalls David Grossmans recent image of the two sides like foxes tied together by their tails carrying a blazing torch of destruction. A challenging Chasidic interpretation reconfigures the Torahs injunction to remember Amalek, the epitome of Israels worst enemies, to mean Dont let anyone make you into Amalek.

I feel challenged both as a Jew and as a lover of Israel. I find it hard to say, as some do, that such deeds must simply be accepted as the price of being a country like all others. The root and fountain of Jewish ethics lies in the principle that every human being without distinction is created in Gods image. To regard some lives as of lesser value, to reduce them to collateral damage, even under huge provocation, is morally wrong.

Fear, frustration and anger naturally lead one to demonise the other; hence perhaps the shocking T-shirts depicting a pregnant Arab woman with the disgusting slogan that One shot = two kills. The Judaism I believe in, that Judaism which has so often itself been the victim of demonisation, tries to humanise the other. Arik Ascherman of Rabbis For Human Rights expressed the courageous wish for Yom Haatzamaut that we should learn to see the world through the eyes of a single Palestinian, and so reconnect with our own ethical identity. Ive spoken several times to Dr Ezzeldeen Abu al-Aish, three of whose daughters were killed, through an acknowledged mistake by Israel, in Gaza. He said, with a simple wisdom extraordinarily free of anger, We must remember our shared humanity. That is the foundation of all religious ethics.

The war in Gaza has strengthened those who hate Israel already. It has re-awoken slumbering antisemitism, in places to terrifying levels.

But it has also aroused powerful feelings in many who love Israel. What do we say and do? I know nowhere else in the world where there is so much altruism and idealism per square mile, so much effort to promote dialogue and understanding. Yet Israel today is also being defined by house demolitions, settler violence, blatant racism and policies of sometimes indiscriminate retribution. Its not just young people who feel challenged; some whove cared about the country for a life-time feel close to despair. Many Jews are afraid of talking about Israel, even to each other, for fear of being branded for their views.

The answer doesnt lie in joining Israels enemies, in ceasing to care, or in turning a blind eye. That, too, may prove a way of assisting in Israels destruction. Nor should we stop defending Israel when it is reviled. The issue is how to show commitment to Israel, despite, or sometimes through, challenging some of its actions.

We need to combine faithfulness to our people with loyalty to Jewish values. Countless Israelis struggle courageously for social justice, for equality for all citizens, for excellent universal medical provision, to build educational bridges between Jews and Muslims, to create an infrastructure for the peace which we pray must come. This is where we, individually and communally, should commit our money, presence and effort. Otherwise we let Israel, and Judaism, down.

"Isreal is no homeland for them, despite being pronounced so"

Oh yeah? What sort of high horse of self righteous sh*te do you call that?
Why don't you go to Israel and tell the six million population that?
Why don't you go to Yad Vashem and stand there and say that in the memorial to six million people slaughtered because they were Jews ?

What's next? The usual anti-semitic disclaimer, "oh some of my best friends are Jews" and "I know all about Jews I had a neighbour who was one" - yeah yeah yeah.

You hear the same thing about Greeks and Cypriots in Cyprus, Hindus, Sikhs,Christians, Muslims in India/Pakistan, Chinese, Muslims in Malaya, Muslims, Christians in Serbia and the rest of ex-Yugoslavia................all the language of racial or religious or political hatred of one group for another.....tribal primitive sh*te dressed up in polite language at best, torture and mass murder at worst......the mask of "reason" and "debate" slips very easily.......the stench of hatred spreads far and wide and is unmissable.........

Haystack, Thank you for post 1118. I think that sums up my feelings adequately.

I will have an argument about "belief" some other time.

I didn't say "oh some of my best friends are Jews". In fact I can't think of one that is a best friend apart from my best man, but I do do have Jewish friends and several do not support Israel and want nothing to do with it. It is quite possible to be pro Jewish and anti-Israel. As an example, my best man is quite anti-Israel and yet his brother has long gone to live in Israel and is a devout supporter. I don't think that the deaths of 6 million innocent Jews has anything to do with anto-Israel feeling.

You do sound more extreme even than neo-Nazis. Your language is the usual emotive claptrap intended to stifle agrument.

I did not make it clear that the story above was written by the Jewish Chronicle!!!

I have added the following lines to it.

[From The Jewish Chronicle
Rabbi Jonathan Wittenberg
May 7, 2009]

glad i got bored with this thread many weeks ago ...... in dog years, this should run into the next millenium

(Not you Cynic), Are you lot for real ?.....this is turning into a political web site, crazy !.....if any of this nonsense was to impact the price of oil : I'd understand but it's like a practice "blogging space" for nutcases !.

Cynic and RF, Simple answer to your "problems" is don't read the thread.

There are few posters, as well as may as well as a few threads, which I don't scan through and don't seem to miss them.

Would you wish censorship of other peoples choices?

You don't have to answer?

But the easiest thing is to impose your own censorship on your self.

Don't know who you are calling nutcases, there's only one on this thread and I don't read his posts :)

I think most residences of Israel and Palestine are tired of war and eager to have peace. Outsiders may think differently..... I think the media is responsible for many problems including this one.

I hope Obama can generate an environment for the people of the two faiths to discuss their differences and decide about their life themselves.

I do believe my friends it is now time to put this thread "to bed".

I stay up late.

Which bed?


Sivad, if it bores you, read a different thread.

Sounds like a good idea, sivad.
I must admit reading "Isreal is no homeland for them, despite being pronounced so" the day after I saw "Defiance" on DVD made me see red - still does......
What next I wonder - all immigrants to the US should leave and they shouldn't have a country and it should be handed back to the Native Americans - there is actually a stronger argument for that - the Jews have lived in the land of Israel of thousands of years and someone comes out with that sort of incredibly arrogant comment.....there's room for Israel and room for a Palestinian state too.......anyway, I'll leave this thread for now.
Richard

Fred, stop worrying and go and have a pie & pint .... lol