Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

They are tired of fighting. Should be ready to compromise, sit and talk.
Those who are not tired of killing each other will join the rest soon I hope.

Fred - you actually rather miss the point, though it is not absolutely clear ...... photographs and newsreels are easy to stomach, as they come across rather like cinema - i.e. unreal ..... it was all quite fine, even seeing the ovens in all their g(l)ory, apart from a guy treating it all as a photoshoot with his pal, until i reached the "shower room" ..... it was at that point that the full horror became all too apparent.

i had had enough, and left feeling pretty shell-shocked and sick, though there was still a museum and film to watch - not for me there wasn't.

===============

the close proximity (just 2/3 miles away) of the sleepy little medieval town of Dachau was alo a bit of a shaker ...... i have no intent to stir up enmity, but my goodness, how on earth could the locals pretend that they knew nothing, not least because the prisoners were marched from the local station to the camp ..... surely they couldn't have imagined the "visitors" were off on a jolly to Butlins

I made no attempt to diminish the "horror" or the extent of the "crime" at Dachau. I have not visited the site or objected to it being a memorial to the events of that period.

However, over the last ten years, I have visited on two occasions:

" Oradour-sur-Glane is a town and commune in the Haute-Vienne dartement, Limousin rion of west-central France.

The original village was destroyed on June 10, 1944, when 642 of its inhabitants were murdered by a German Waffen-SS company. A new village was built post-war on a nearby site and the original has been maintained as a memorial."

At the first visit I thought I knew what to expect, but was horrified when witnessed the results and recollected on the "barbarities" which occurred in 1944 or German occupied Europe.

What surprise me that on my second visit, while extremely interested in the detail of the massacre and the reasoning behind it, I seemed to have become to a certain degree desensitise and more dispassionate. I was more interested in observing the reaction of others at the scene.

Probably, doesn't say much for me, but on reflection it did give me a little more understanding of how others could carry out such actions with seemingly little remorse.

If you are in that part of France, pay a short visit to the Village. I respect the French for keeping it as a memorial.

Likewise, I feel the mass graves of civilians in the woods in other parts of Europe.

The veneer of civilisation is very thin.

My mother's brother was a wartime photographer and one of his jobs at the end of the war, after doing secret underwater photography, was to go to Auschwitz and a few other camps to record images of the places. I am in no doubt as to the extent of the holocaust and I think we should never forget what happened.

However, I do agree with Fred to quite an extent about the current behaviour of Israel. There are also many Israelis who have condemned their government over Gazza. I am no supporter of Israel and will continue to support the Palestinians certainly while Israel still has land that does not belong to them. They are still building on stolen land even now.

i was not suggesting israel's actions are in any way justified by what happened 70 years ago ..... more than anything, i just wanted to post something about Dachau and this seemed a sensible (i never said that!) place so to do

Cynic, I did not have the impression that you were justifying present Israeli "government" action.

good ..... as i posted, i really just wanted to say something, and this was a reasonably appropriate site to do so

Israelis Discuss Support for President Obama and Two-State Solution

http://www.jstreet.org/campaigns/current

I watched the video and the longer version. There has never been a shortage of Israelis with that view. The trouble is that there are not enough of them and they are not representative of the majority. The right wing of the government will always stop peace on sensible terms.

Most Israeli governments only stay in power as a coalition with religion exercising too much power. The average Israeli government lasts 22 months due to the right wing constantly bringing it all crashing down.

There are 3 religious parties alone. There are 12 parties with representation in the Knesset and 21 other parties that did not reach the electorial threshold. There are also 88 other parties that have existed at one time or another.

A 1918 statement by the President of the US (Woodrow Wilson)

The settlement of every question, whether of territory, of sovereignty, of economic arrangement, or political relationship, rests upon the basis of the free acceptance of that settlement by the people immediately concerned, and not upon the basis of the material interest or advantage of any other nation or people which may desire a different settlement for the sake of its own exterior influence or mastery. If that principle is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestines population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine nearly nine-tenths of the whole are emphatically against the entire Zionist program. The tables show that there was no one thing upon which the population of Palestine were more agreed upon than this. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted, and of the Peoples rights, though it is kept within the forms of law.

And that is still the case today and just as true.

Agreed.

I find it difficult to understand why the "Israeli Leadership" can not or will not understand the "feeling" of abuse that they are subjecting the Palestinians to.

Until they do so, the conflict will continue with continuing pain and misery to both sides.

This is not gainful to the "ordinary" person living in that area.

I can remember a catholic peasant talking to a moslem peasant saying " It was alright until we appointed leaders."

It was interesting to hear Netanyahu condemning Iran at the UN, at the same time as building on Palestinian land and ignoring UN "directives".


But with this political legacy can you expect better?

"
"Ehud Olmert defiant as corruption trial begins
Former Israeli prime minister faces charges of secret campaign funding, fraud over travel costs and personal favours
'I believe my innocence will be proven,' said Ehud Olmert as his trial began on corruption charges. Photograph: Lawrence Jackson/AP
Ehud Olmert, the former Israeli prime minister, has appeared in a Jerusalem court at the start of a high-profile corruption trial, insisting he will be acquitted.
Olmert, 63, resigned his party leadership in September 2008 as the pressure of several corruption investigations mounted against him. Last month he was charged with crimes including fraud and breach of trust in three separate cases dating back to when he was Jerusalem mayor and then a government minister.
He is the first Israeli leader to face such serious corruption charges and could face up to five years in jail on each of four counts.
As he walked into the Jerusalem district court today, Olmert continued to protest his innocence. "I came here as an innocent person and I believe my innocence will be proven," he said.
Olmert had been the target of an "unfair" legal witch-hunt over three years, Olmert said.
In one case he is accused of breaking campaign finance laws by taking cash-stuffed envelopes from an American businessman and long-time supporter. He is also accused of double-billing for flights booked through his travel agency and of committing fraud by giving personal favours to his former legal partner.
Olmert stood down at a leadership election in September last year but under Israeli law stayed on as a caretaker prime minister until the rightwing Binyamin Netanyahu formed a government in March after general elections.
A conviction at this trial would probably end Olmert's hopes of returning to political life.
He is not the only Israeli politician to run up against the law this year. In June a former finance minister, Avraham Hirchson, was jailed for five years and five months for corruption; and a former welfare minister, Shlomo Benizri, was jailed for four years for taking bribes. In March the former Israeli president, Moshe Katsav, was charged with rape and other sexual offences."

======"

Is it one rule for the Iranians and other Arab states and a different rule of Israel and other independent states?

It seems to me that Israel with its present administration a greater threat to stability in the Middle East than Iran or any other Middle East country

Is it time for the International community to require Israel to have UN inspection of its Nuclear enrichment plants and other research and development to be examined for their war like preparations?

If Israel does not agree is it time to implement sanctions against them unless the give up their nuclear arms and agree to stop building the settlements on Palestinian
land?

Is Israel stoking up international hostility to Iran with remarks such as below, in order to divert attention from its own crimes?

=========

Israel calls for action on Iran when remarks like

Israel says the disclosure that Iran is building a second nuclear enrichment facility proves it "wants to equip itself with nuclear weapons".

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman said Israel wanted to see an "unequivocal" Western response to the development.

Tehran insists that the site, under construction near the city of Qom, is being built in line with United Nations regulations, though this is contested.

Iran says it wants atomic power only for the production of electricity.

But the new revelations have raised tension days before talks between Iran and six global powers negotiating over Tehran's atomic programme.

Meanwhile Iranian media reported that the elite Revolutionary Guards would start missile defence exercises on Sunday, in a move which seems guaranteed to increase tensions further.

------------------------
As per usual, I am sure the Mighty Microbe will have some inane response!

Jon Leyne, BBC Tehran correspondent

The big fear is that ultimately Iran will have a fully-fledged inter-continental ballistic missile.
These missiles already cover pretty much the whole of the Middle East and a good chunk of Turkey as well, and maybe the fringes of Europe.
I think Iran would say with some justice its missile programme is the strongest deterrent it has got.
It probably cannot prevent Western jets getting through and Western missiles getting through.
But it could - and I think Israel knows for example - that if it did strike Iran, it would have to take into account the possibility of reallysubstantial casualties if Iran did unleash its long-range missile pack.

=======================================================
Is it true that Russia provided Iran with Missile defence batteries for interception of aircraft and missiles two years ago?
=================================================
Asked before, if Israel bombed Iran nuclear facilities would there be nuclear radiation and fall out as a result? Also, if there is radiation fall out, over what area and range would it be.
===========================
Problems of the Chernobyl disaster affected Northern and Western Europe!!
=======
Perhaps, Israel need to be hesitant!

==================================

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/may/12/farmers-restricted-chernobyl-disaster

=============================
Britain's farmers still restricted by Chernobyl nuclear fallout

Environmentalists say controls on 369 farms highlight danger of plans to build nuclear plants around UK

* Buzz up!
* Digg it

* Terry Macalister and Helen Carter
* guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 12 May 2009 12.30 BST
* Article history

Congratulations to Israel once more

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8303355.stm


Israelis flatten Palestinian home
Palestinian women checks her reflection in a wardrobe door salvaged from demolished house in Beit Hanina
Israel has demolished hundreds of Palestinian homes built without permits

Israeli authorities have demolished two Palestinian-owned structures in East Jerusalem, in defiance of international calls to stop such actions.

Palestinian reports say a family of five was forcibly evicted from their home in the Beit Hanina district before the building was demolished.

Israeli bulldozers then destroyed the foundations of another building nearby.

UN officials say such demolitions violate international law and raise serious humanitarian concerns.

Israel says buildings subject to demolition orders have been built without permits.

Palestinians say it is virtually impossible to obtain the necessary approval from Israel's municipal authorities in Jerusalem.

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem , says the authorities have demolished about 420 Palestinian-owned houses in East Jerusalem since 2004 saying they were built without permits.

Israel occupied the territory in the 1967 war and annexed it soon afterwards in a move that has not been recognised internationally.

Just an Update. Results may be interesting.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=32526&Cr=palestin&Cr1=

Human Rights Council to discuss recent UN probe into Gaza conflict

The four person United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict
13 October 2009 The Human Rights Council announced today that it will hold a special session on Thursday to discuss the report of the recent United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict that took place at the start of the year.
The session will begin at 3 p.m. a day after the Security Council holds its own debate on the Middle East and is likely to continue on Friday, the Council said in a press release issued from its headquarters in Geneva.
Earlier this month the 47-member Council decided to defer action on a draft resolution on the issue until March 2010, but it has now brought forward the debate following a request from Palestine that was co-sponsored by 18 countries.
Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon discussed the report of the UN fact-finding mission by telephone on Sunday with Mahmoud Abbas, President of the Palestinian Authority, a UN spokesperson said yesterday.
The mission, headed by Justice Richard Goldstone, found evidence that both Israeli forces and Palestinian militants committed serious war crimes and breaches of humanitarian law, which may amount to crimes against humanity, during the conflict in December 2008 and January 2009.
Presenting his report to the Council late last month, Justice Goldstone called for an end to impunity for those found to have committed human rights violations.
It is accountability above all that is called for in the aftermath of the regrettable violence that has caused so much misery for so many, he said.
Justice Goldstone urged the Council to implement a number of measures, including a referral of the missions report to the Security Council, since neither the Government of Israel nor the responsible Palestinian authorities have so far carried out any credible investigations into alleged violations.
Apart from Justice Goldstone, a former chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, the other members of the fact-finding team are: Christine Chinkin, Professor of International Law at the London School of Economics and Political Science at the University of London; Hina Jilani, Advocate of the Supreme Court of Pakistan and former Special Representative of the Secretary-General on Human Rights Defenders; and retired Colonel Desmond Travers, member of the Board of Directors of the Institute for International Criminal Investigations (IICI).

Is Israel's government trying to turn the Gaza strip into a "Polish type Ghetto" ?

A question being asked by many.

Another interesting commentary.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/290164,palestinian-official-denounces-israel-in-un-security-council.html


New York - The Palestinian Authority's Foreign Minister Riad Al-Malki charged Wednesday that Israel was responsible for the deaths of more than 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza Strip, citing the Goldstone report on the December-January fighting between Israel and Hamas. Arab and Islamic envoys showed up in force in support of the Palestinians before the 15-nation council in New York in a showdown between them and the council in which the United States can veto all attacks against its ally Israel.

The Arabs had demanded that the council debate the report of South African Judge Richard Goldstone on the Gaza fighting. The council rejected the demand, but decided to hold its monthly debate on the Middle East situation to allow Arab and Palestinian envoys to speak.

More than 40 speakers have signed up to address the council on the eve of another debate in the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva on the Goldstone report, which was drawn from investigations by a three-member panel commissioned by the 47-member council.



Palestinian official denounces Israel in UN Security Council


Al-Malki rejected assessments by the United States and the UN that progress had been made to advance a settlement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"No real progress has been made in the peace process," he said. "The Goldstone report constitutes a wake-up call that cannot be ignored."

Al-Malki denounced what he called the "savage" killing of Palestinian people by the Israeli Defence Forces during the Gaza fighting with Hamas.

Hmm... I've been trying to keep out of this, but...

Look, if the French reckoned they had "Ancient" and "Promised" rights to land in, say, Kent.. would we mere Englishmen be expected to simply up-sticks and move out sharpish?
Does anyone here think there'd be no attempt at resistance somehow?

OF COURSE we'd resist!!

This whole bloody mess came about because we were all so shocked and appalled (rightly so) at the 'holocaust' the jews suffered.. we felt SO sorry for them that we agreed to giving 'back' to them their ancient lands. Palestinian lands.

Why? Because they had 'rights' to lands promised to them by god.

Ridiculous? Of course. But we wanted a quickish end to the whole damn mess so agreed to it, didn't we?
Would any 'nation' be established today because THEIR god said it was their right?

In my younger days I used to be very pro Isreali, never again. I couldn't understand the likes of vanessa Redgrave protesting against them, but I can sure get it now.

I've grown up.

The rest of the world needs to too. Isrealis are savages to the Palestinians, absolute savages. I now help as much as I can, I send money and clothing etc, what else can ordinary folk do?
Letters to polititians go unread I suspect, certainly mine do, no replies!

Yes, of course it's a 'complicated' affair.. but the bottom line is that 'Isreal' was simply parachuted down into other peoples land, simple as that.

And they are not happy about it.

What would the English do I wonder, if the French, Germans, Spanish or anyone else reckoned our land was theirs 'by divine right' no less.

Would we handle things any better than the Palestinians?
I think we'd maybe fight back better and harder. But I am pretty sure we would indeed fight back.

Sanity has been described as sharing common reality and being able to act accordingly within it prescribed boundaries.

Some states of madness have been described as an inability to recognise the prescribe boundaries and with attempts to force the beliefs on to others.

=========================================

In spite of being defined or abused by some posters as being amongst other in a state of madness, it would seems that much of what I have written on this board accords with general opinion held by international bodies.

I think the purveyors of abuse should therefore consider their own mental states.

But it will seems that many will remain is with their own fixed beliefs and not be prepared to revise them.

===================================

Interest to me is that the present Israeli administration spokesmen/women use the same approach when reflecting on the findings of the UNITED NATIONS HUMAN
RIGHTS COUNCIL .

Making attempts to denigrate the body, its members and their opinions

Although, one of the Council members is said to be, an eminent Zionist scholar.

It seems that the use of personal attacks with attempts at character assassination and denigration are the only tools of those who have lost an argument are able to resort to.
======================================
Some posters on these threads have much in common.
========

I have cut and pasted a little of the findings below. The whole article seems to me worth reading!
http://www.agi.it/world/news/200910161442-pol-ren0050-gaza_un_human_rights_council_slaps_israel

AZA: UN HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL SLAPS ISRAEL
(AGI) - Geneva, October 16
The United Nations Human Rights Council has adopted the Goldstone report on the Israeli offensive last January in Gaza which accuses both Israel and Hamas of having committed war crimes.
The adoption of the report passed with 25 votes in favor, 6 against and 11 abstentions. In the 575 page report the investigating commission led by Richard Goldstone, a former constitutional judge from South Africa, asks Israel and Hamas to investigate the war crimes committed during the Cast Lead offensive between December 27 2008 and January 18 2009 in a credible way and within six months, asking otherwise for the UN Security Council to remand the question to the International Court of Justice.
Israel tried in every possible way to prohibit consideration of the Goldstone report, which it considers spoiled, during the special session of the council in Geneva.

Premier Benjamin Netanyahu has said the report awards terrorism and is a threat to the peace process. In the resolution, supported by the Arab and African member states and the Islamic Conference , ''the recommendations contained in the report are adopted'' and all institutions, including the UN, are asked to encourage the implementation''.

The resolution contains numerous references to Israel, including one to the ''recent violations of human rights in East Jerusalem'', but no one in Hamas; something that brought criticism from Goldstone himself.

And so on!