The market seems to be selling-off on the back of limited bad news imo, apart from the dollar that is.

If you can hold your nerve and apart from any short term requirements to offload poor performing stocks, I have a couple!!, my advice would be sit tight. This does not have the feel of the tech(mining!) bubble at all. Difference being there are a lot of good fundamentals, unlike in 2000 when there were a lot of over rated nothing companies.

If any of them stop paying bonuses it would only start the rumours flying and that would hit the share price. NRK is the only one so far to admit it's struggling and look what happened there. I suspect they'll all struggle on with "business as usual", hoping things will work through the system eventually. It'll just mean tighter lending and lower profits for sometime to come. If markets continue to perform badly then bonuses won't be an issue going forward. It's also possible they don't fully understand there levels of exposure yet. Only yesterday Swiss Re (a re insurer) announced a 1.2 bln sfr loss, having said it would only be 104 mln sfr back in September. I think the picture keeps changing (for the worse so far) each month.

In my opinion....

Strawbs

To pay massive bonuses and at the same time have to make huge provisions is not good management and shareholders have the right to question the directors actions in this respect. If large bonuses are paid shortly this must confirm that the so called credit crunch has been blown up out of all proportion to the actual problem.

I think it's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If (it's all hypothetical) they come out and say we're not paying a bonus, the inference will be "money problems" and the share price will tank. If they pay a bonus and nobody finds out they've got a problem, they'll get through it and the share price will hold, even if the sensible option would be to save the money. Ironically it's probably the best option for share holders. Share prices are as much about confidence as fundamentals afterall.

Of course nobody really knows what state the banks are in. The balance of probabilities though, would suggest others are likely to be exposed in some way or another.

In my opinion.

Strawbs

freddie mac!

It is just like the almost bankrupt businessman trying to show off to his clients by buying a new Ferrari and a Rolex gold watch. Then things go BUST.

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- Mortgage investor Freddie Mac said its third-quarter loss more than doubled from year-ago levels as mortgage prices collapsed and credit tightened, forcing the firm to add to loss provisions and consider cutting its dividend in half. See full story.
Horton has fourth-quarter loss; market 'remains challenging'
Homebuilder D.R. Horton Inc. swung to a net loss in its fiscal fourth quarter as the company took more land-related write-downs amid the continuing downturn in the housing market. The company also expects the housing environment to "remain challenging."
Analysts worry that mortgage woes could spread to auto loans
Rising delinquency rates on car and truck loans have some industry analysts concerned that subprime mortgage troubles could spill into the automotive finance business.

Kesa Electricals has this morning reported sustained strong sales momentum in its third quarter.

Europe's third-biggest electricals retailer said this reflected continuing strong demand for multimedia goods and flat-screen TVs.

For the three months to October 31st, the group's total sales increased by 11.3% and were up 9.9% in local currency.

Like-for-like sales were up 3%, slightly below analysts' expectations.

'This was a solid third quarter performance. Against the high comparatives of last year, all our businesses delivered revenue growth,' said CEO, Jean-Noel Labroue.

The CEO said that despite continued strong demand for flat-screen televisions and good sales of multimedia equipment, particularly laptops, the negative mix effect on the margin observed at the end of the first half continued throughout this quarter.



just posted this as a reminder that people are still spending, and i bet sales in general will be very strong this Christmas on the high street. My prediction 3 months ago of a rate drop before Christmas could still ring true yet...

halifax - not sure about the reasoning re bonuses above. We've seen the heads of 2 of the largest banks in the world (US) resign and take monster payouts for building up massive debts which were written down. To add to that, we've known about fat cats for decades. Personally, the bigger the bonuses, the more these banks are worrying that they must grab it now IMO!!! ;-)))

Big Al thats fine if the bonuses are justifiable but if the shareholders dont see a relative increase in dividend or increased share buybacks then the directors will be on the line for not looking after the shareholders interests.

Seems to me that banking bonuses are calculated against profits and profits are to a large extent calculated against alleged value of derivative type products and the like held on the books. It is therefore in their interests to value these as highly as possible and we all now know that some of these historically were well away from reality. In my view any bonuses should be calculated primarily against cash profits.

halifax - compeltely agree with you. Just saying that these incompetents milk it for all its worth even when things have plainly gone t*ts up.

It seems to me they continue even when they know they'll be hauled over the coals. There's no penalty for a director who cocks up and never has been IMO.

Partridge agree bonuses should not paid out on unbooked profits. This is why it is also the responsibility of external auditors to ensure that stated profits are tangible otherwise they too can be held to account by the shareholders.

Will there be one big sell off before a bounce...??? will we test 5850 this week or next??? tough call, but sentiment is negative everywhere i turn...

Bonuses of top execs shd rise with shareholders divs,and fall too if appropriate ,its the shareholders who are the owners and they have all to lose. If any one still feels cheerful trythis piece from a top bear writing on systemic financial meltdown on FT Alphaville http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2007/11/21/9066/stand-by-for-generalised-systemic-financial-meltdown/

Just tried to view the JRVS thread, but its subscription only, are their any on the traders thread???

I think the Dow had a false rally on Friday. Now the Saudis will consider ditching the US Dollar to protect the Riyals.

Is Bush aware of the situation concerning the dollar or is his time fully occupied in trying to convince the world that the invasion of Iraq has been a resounding success?

Assuming that he can spare a moment to address the end of the American empire does he understand enough about financial matters to act effectively?

If only Iraq was a success...had the Iraq invasion been a short, quick blitzkreig (as was predicted by Hannity and others on the right), everyone would be running to US dollars.

But the answer is NO and the war has proven to ruin its economy.

Recession is looming nearer each day.

Saudi cannot "ditch the US Dollar" as hyleo suggests ..... 3 guesses as to what currency oil is traded in?

LOL Cyn.

If the paper becomes worthless (relatively speaking) they could easily change over time and start pricing in Euros or some other strong currency. Americas influence is dictated by it's status as a reserve currency, with many middle east and far east (China especially) holding huge pots of dollars (well over a trillion I believe). As the dollar declines the value of those reserves dwindle. Just as Britain was once "great" and sterling a major currency now over a centry ago, the US too will gradually fade. It won't happen overnight of course, but civilisations rise and fall over the centries and I suspect America will go the way of many before it, probably to be replaced by China.

In my opinion.

Strawbs.

technically i dare say you are correct, but in practice, what will happen i am sure, is that the price of crude will just escalate in $ terms ...... the same effectively applies to shipping rates, where there are two variable carges that are applied - CAF (currency) and BAF (bunkering)