This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Can you tell this is one of my favourite soapboxes? ;-)

To quote Oscar, patently not a spade lover--

"The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for."

OR

"I am glad to say I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different.
Oscar Wilde

Being an absolute atheist it is wonderful to pick bits from various religions, with which one agrees absolutely.
I yearn to have some prat take me to court for "religious contempt" for my moral code, pinched from a variety of pious verses---

1.I strongly urge the return of mutilation for thieves, death penalty for murder, and ritual humiliation for sexual perverts , including castration of course.
2.Xmas must be celebrated by all holders of British passports, all regional councils
and all religious buildings.
3.The Union Jack will be flown from all buildings not privately owned.
4.Women caught in adultery to be stoned
5.Arranged marriages to be condoned, indeed encouraged, but only where the male reckons she is fit
6.English only to be spoken in the UK, this includes Scots ,Welsh, and Brummies, who will be `re-trained in the language.
7.Polygomy officially encouraged, but only the Tibetan version where several men marry one woman,
8.The family of murderers must invoke the punishment for murder
9.Homosexuality to be the subject of Islamic Law.
10.The Bible and Koran banned in all public places, including religious buildings
11. Priests of any religion to be taxed at 99% on their earnings, the resulting cash to be given to the poor of their Parish, and bits re-distributed back to them as the poor decide.
12. God Save The Queen

snappy: (Re your post 160)

Please don't regurgitate all that 9/11 conspiracy theory stuff: each and every one of those wild theories has been debunked. Believe me, there was plenty of wreckage of flight 93 in Pennsylvania.

I can assure you that I have (literally) second-hand eye-witness accounts from a very good long-term American friend who had to work on the recovery process at all three sites in the line of duty.

At the flight 93 site, for example, I can tell you that the largest human remain recovered was one-half of a foot.

this is how serious the yanks the take the Iraqi war. http://www.office-humour.co.uk/g/i/3413/

and another one! http://www.office-humour.co.uk/g/i/2102/

Sorry mightymicro but to my mind many things just do not add up.

We are each entitled to our own opinion and a jury does not always reach a gulity/not guilty verdict.

Too many questions remain and the 'official' story has more holes than a sieve.

I don't trust our government and I certainly don't trust the present US administration.

blinger, IMO true buddism is the safest religion for none-believers!

On Iraq

(1) Perhaps Iraq would have split into two or three nations by now but, IMO, Iraq and Iraqis would have been far better off now if Saddam has not been helped to power.

(2) why has the oil price gone up since the invasion. Increase Chinese demand was a factor, but in my mind, it is grossly over-played. We don't have the whole picture.
How much has the Iraqi people benefited from the increase in oil price. 100% of the price increase or much less? Consumer don't even get the benefit of cheaper oil!

Blair impeachment over Iraq urged

...

Former UN commander in Bosnia General Sir Michael Rose said Mr Blair had to take responsibility for his actions.

"To go to war on what turns out to be false grounds is something that no one should be allowed to walk away from," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

The consequences for Iraq and the war on terror had been "quite disastrous", General Sir Michael said.

"Certainly from a soldier's perspective there can't be any more serious decision taken by a prime minister than declaring war," he told the programme.

He said Mr Blair's actions were "somewhere in between" getting the politics wrong and acting illegally.

"The politics was wrong, that he rarely declared what his ultimate aims were, as far as we can see, in terms of harping continually on weapons of mass destruction when actually he probably had some other strategy in mind.

"And secondly, the consequences of that war have been quite disastrous both for the people of Iraq and also for the west in terms of our wider interests in the war against global terror."

...

With comments like "he rarely declared what his ultimate aims were", it make General Michael Rose a conspiracist, in some people's opinion. Wonder how long before stories about his personal life start to appear and ciruclate, from unknown sources ...

this is just an opinion

the world better wake up because were at war

if we like it or not our leaders will not admit it but were at war

if other religous fanatics started beheading unarmed muslim civilians

how do u think they would react

if terrorists started to inflick heavy casualties on muslim communities how do u think they would react

in my opinion we should fight war like war not with both eyes shut and our feet and hands tied

this is the first war were the people that can(i repeat can) if they choose to do wipe a country and its ppl off the planet with little damage to themselves if they really wanted to

but we dont

why

because were trying to live in peace(unsteady but peace)

now if a fundimentalist country or indeed any arab nation had that power they would have unleashed it a longtime ago

diffrence then is simple

civilised uncivilised

as plain as the nose on your face

so in answer to your question should we put blair on trial i say yes but for the following reasons;

for letting the people of britain down

for being a wimp

for the foolhardy death of our british soldiers that have to fight with poor equipment

for tying our troops hands and not letting them loose on our enimies

for making our nation look weak and ineffective

for asking for volenteers to help protect our country then telling them that if some guy points or carries a weapon and aint on your side if you shoot them your going to go to trial for it

for letting media publish pictures and saying they are for real and depict our troops as bad ppl then finding out that they are not real pic and not taking the these media people their publishers,editors and the reporters to the gallows for treason

for not suing the media that showed those pictures and giving the money to the soldiers families that suffered death of a loved one through unreast unleashed by these pic

yes we should put him on trial for being soft and weak

remember this is just an opinions

right on `fred, well said, too many people are afraid to be pro-Brit. these days, thats why political parties end up with prats like Kennedy- for a while.

blinger old m8 this is just an opinion that a lot of brits have if you sit and think of it

thats me point

if you move to another country you must want to take on there way of life or why move

lets say you went to a muslim country with your wife and daughters and walked about as you do in your own country say britain

you would expect some trouble because you are in there country so therefor you should follow there rules there laws

not so in my opinion if you come to britain you just say and do what u want or you did right up to the tube bombings in my opinion

we have religous fanatics that we cant get ride of because if we send them back to were they origionally started there troubles they would be put to death and our goody two shoes of politicians dont want that do they

me id coral them all up and post them back to what ever country wanted them(religous zelots ,fanatics and troublemakers i mean not everybody )

i would also bring back the death sentence for traitors

your either with the country or you aint no half ways in this camp

this is all an opinion that we all are free to have

im know some ppl will not like it but thats life

i might not like theirs either

i did not like thatcher as a politician but you got to give her her due she was in your team all the way and if we would have listened to her saddam was gone in 1990 the first time.

but yet again goody two shoes jumped and mess up again


in my opinion time for the real ppl to stand up and say im in your team

remember this is all an opinion thats all

thats all very well, but why did we go to war in the first? place??? What have the iragi's ever done to us or too the US. In fact the oppisite has happened where the west actually supported Sadam and provided him with everything he needed. If you want to live in a dog eat dog world where only the strongest survive thats fine, im 6'2'' 15 stone, box, go to the gym but there will always be someone bigger and better. Where does it all end?

Just a little something to think about. I went to a little country town recently after a walk in the Malvern Hills. A place called Ledbury. Went to one cafe (nice white english people inside) at 3.45, said on the door closed at 4.00, they would NOT serve any food or even make a sandwich (they would make a cup of Tea) because they were closing at 4pm. We walked all the way round the town with the same response in another place. At dead on 4.00pm we reached a cafe run by what seemed like Chinese people with the owners just finished tiding up. They welcomed us with open arms and made us a lovely baquette and cup of tea. Pity the lovely white English people didnt treat us just the same 15 minutes before closing time let alone at closing time.

Hew, I still dont think you get it mate, for the record I have campaigned against several issues such as honour killings predominately today found in muslim societies, I have also done the same regarding the IRA, the point is I dont give a shit whether someone is english, white, black, christian, muslim or what ever, I have travelled a lot and found that people are the same where ever you go, thats my point i really have no time for flag waving. Extremism on the left or right is the same as hitler and stalin demonstrated, the innocent suffer. you either care or you dont, you can go on about pc till the cows come, but extremism occurs in all groups, societies etc.

Dave - MATE?????? there are numerous posters on here with varying different views from right to left. Are talking to one or everyone??

everyone mate

Dave,
My point is that the softly, softly approach of the PC values fuels extremeism. I too have travelled and lived in many countries and our approach is out of step with many parts of the world.
If we finally said that, yes, there are differences between us and that we should all respect those differences, rather than trying to pretend that all cultures are the same, we would get somewhere.
You make the point that other cultures hold different belief systems and values (honour killings, IRA) but the real point is that whenvalues collide, whose should be the one to triumph?
The answer to most people is the value of the majority society (Britain, Christian(In its broadest sense)). The PC peddlers would have us believe that either the opposite is true, or the situation need never arise. Not true because some sections of society are extreme by nature, but not the majority of society, who I argue should hold sway. The majority are moderate and peaceful people.
If you don't believe that minority sections rule then ask yourself about the situation in Pentonville prison, where all denominations share one place of worship, except for Muslims who demanded, and received, a purpose built Mosque for their own use.
Check out the UCE calander. Ask a policeman about the rights of search where a hat is worn!!!
I am not anti- muslim or anti-anything (other than PC). I do find it easy to argue the muslim areas of this subject though because I lived and worked in The Middle east for some time and I have first hand experience of how a Muslim regime approaches these questions.
Alan

Hew, was u on the debating society at uni? At least we agree, u are anti pc and I am anti hate groups, sure you make some good points, the point is that the pc movement as you would call came about mostly after the 2nd world war and the increase in wealth, education etc. The truth is there never was this harmonious place called the uk, women starved to death fighting for the right to vote, 276 years in the slave trade, women had no place in the church, children and working classes working in crap conditions, all these groups today have won various freedoms, take the workers, they have rights like you and me, because of rise of unions etc, I can tell you countless stories of union corruption and abuses of power, of course there will all be abuses of power, but without them the majority of workers would still be working in crap conditions etc, and you know doubt have alist of pc uniion stories, but thats still not the point, I am a critic of extremism and suffering that results on innocent people wheter it is PC, christian whatever, its the same thing