This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Sorry mightymicro but to my mind many things just do not add up.

We are each entitled to our own opinion and a jury does not always reach a gulity/not guilty verdict.

Too many questions remain and the 'official' story has more holes than a sieve.

I don't trust our government and I certainly don't trust the present US administration.

blinger, IMO true buddism is the safest religion for none-believers!

On Iraq

(1) Perhaps Iraq would have split into two or three nations by now but, IMO, Iraq and Iraqis would have been far better off now if Saddam has not been helped to power.

(2) why has the oil price gone up since the invasion. Increase Chinese demand was a factor, but in my mind, it is grossly over-played. We don't have the whole picture.
How much has the Iraqi people benefited from the increase in oil price. 100% of the price increase or much less? Consumer don't even get the benefit of cheaper oil!

Blair impeachment over Iraq urged

...

Former UN commander in Bosnia General Sir Michael Rose said Mr Blair had to take responsibility for his actions.

"To go to war on what turns out to be false grounds is something that no one should be allowed to walk away from," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

The consequences for Iraq and the war on terror had been "quite disastrous", General Sir Michael said.

"Certainly from a soldier's perspective there can't be any more serious decision taken by a prime minister than declaring war," he told the programme.

He said Mr Blair's actions were "somewhere in between" getting the politics wrong and acting illegally.

"The politics was wrong, that he rarely declared what his ultimate aims were, as far as we can see, in terms of harping continually on weapons of mass destruction when actually he probably had some other strategy in mind.

"And secondly, the consequences of that war have been quite disastrous both for the people of Iraq and also for the west in terms of our wider interests in the war against global terror."

...

With comments like "he rarely declared what his ultimate aims were", it make General Michael Rose a conspiracist, in some people's opinion. Wonder how long before stories about his personal life start to appear and ciruclate, from unknown sources ...

this is just an opinion

the world better wake up because were at war

if we like it or not our leaders will not admit it but were at war

if other religous fanatics started beheading unarmed muslim civilians

how do u think they would react

if terrorists started to inflick heavy casualties on muslim communities how do u think they would react

in my opinion we should fight war like war not with both eyes shut and our feet and hands tied

this is the first war were the people that can(i repeat can) if they choose to do wipe a country and its ppl off the planet with little damage to themselves if they really wanted to

but we dont

why

because were trying to live in peace(unsteady but peace)

now if a fundimentalist country or indeed any arab nation had that power they would have unleashed it a longtime ago

diffrence then is simple

civilised uncivilised

as plain as the nose on your face

so in answer to your question should we put blair on trial i say yes but for the following reasons;

for letting the people of britain down

for being a wimp

for the foolhardy death of our british soldiers that have to fight with poor equipment

for tying our troops hands and not letting them loose on our enimies

for making our nation look weak and ineffective

for asking for volenteers to help protect our country then telling them that if some guy points or carries a weapon and aint on your side if you shoot them your going to go to trial for it

for letting media publish pictures and saying they are for real and depict our troops as bad ppl then finding out that they are not real pic and not taking the these media people their publishers,editors and the reporters to the gallows for treason

for not suing the media that showed those pictures and giving the money to the soldiers families that suffered death of a loved one through unreast unleashed by these pic

yes we should put him on trial for being soft and weak

remember this is just an opinions

right on `fred, well said, too many people are afraid to be pro-Brit. these days, thats why political parties end up with prats like Kennedy- for a while.

blinger old m8 this is just an opinion that a lot of brits have if you sit and think of it

thats me point

if you move to another country you must want to take on there way of life or why move

lets say you went to a muslim country with your wife and daughters and walked about as you do in your own country say britain

you would expect some trouble because you are in there country so therefor you should follow there rules there laws

not so in my opinion if you come to britain you just say and do what u want or you did right up to the tube bombings in my opinion

we have religous fanatics that we cant get ride of because if we send them back to were they origionally started there troubles they would be put to death and our goody two shoes of politicians dont want that do they

me id coral them all up and post them back to what ever country wanted them(religous zelots ,fanatics and troublemakers i mean not everybody )

i would also bring back the death sentence for traitors

your either with the country or you aint no half ways in this camp

this is all an opinion that we all are free to have

im know some ppl will not like it but thats life

i might not like theirs either

i did not like thatcher as a politician but you got to give her her due she was in your team all the way and if we would have listened to her saddam was gone in 1990 the first time.

but yet again goody two shoes jumped and mess up again


in my opinion time for the real ppl to stand up and say im in your team

remember this is all an opinion thats all

thats all very well, but why did we go to war in the first? place??? What have the iragi's ever done to us or too the US. In fact the oppisite has happened where the west actually supported Sadam and provided him with everything he needed. If you want to live in a dog eat dog world where only the strongest survive thats fine, im 6'2'' 15 stone, box, go to the gym but there will always be someone bigger and better. Where does it all end?

Just a little something to think about. I went to a little country town recently after a walk in the Malvern Hills. A place called Ledbury. Went to one cafe (nice white english people inside) at 3.45, said on the door closed at 4.00, they would NOT serve any food or even make a sandwich (they would make a cup of Tea) because they were closing at 4pm. We walked all the way round the town with the same response in another place. At dead on 4.00pm we reached a cafe run by what seemed like Chinese people with the owners just finished tiding up. They welcomed us with open arms and made us a lovely baquette and cup of tea. Pity the lovely white English people didnt treat us just the same 15 minutes before closing time let alone at closing time.

Hew, I still dont think you get it mate, for the record I have campaigned against several issues such as honour killings predominately today found in muslim societies, I have also done the same regarding the IRA, the point is I dont give a shit whether someone is english, white, black, christian, muslim or what ever, I have travelled a lot and found that people are the same where ever you go, thats my point i really have no time for flag waving. Extremism on the left or right is the same as hitler and stalin demonstrated, the innocent suffer. you either care or you dont, you can go on about pc till the cows come, but extremism occurs in all groups, societies etc.

Dave - MATE?????? there are numerous posters on here with varying different views from right to left. Are talking to one or everyone??

everyone mate

Dave,
My point is that the softly, softly approach of the PC values fuels extremeism. I too have travelled and lived in many countries and our approach is out of step with many parts of the world.
If we finally said that, yes, there are differences between us and that we should all respect those differences, rather than trying to pretend that all cultures are the same, we would get somewhere.
You make the point that other cultures hold different belief systems and values (honour killings, IRA) but the real point is that whenvalues collide, whose should be the one to triumph?
The answer to most people is the value of the majority society (Britain, Christian(In its broadest sense)). The PC peddlers would have us believe that either the opposite is true, or the situation need never arise. Not true because some sections of society are extreme by nature, but not the majority of society, who I argue should hold sway. The majority are moderate and peaceful people.
If you don't believe that minority sections rule then ask yourself about the situation in Pentonville prison, where all denominations share one place of worship, except for Muslims who demanded, and received, a purpose built Mosque for their own use.
Check out the UCE calander. Ask a policeman about the rights of search where a hat is worn!!!
I am not anti- muslim or anti-anything (other than PC). I do find it easy to argue the muslim areas of this subject though because I lived and worked in The Middle east for some time and I have first hand experience of how a Muslim regime approaches these questions.
Alan

Hew, was u on the debating society at uni? At least we agree, u are anti pc and I am anti hate groups, sure you make some good points, the point is that the pc movement as you would call came about mostly after the 2nd world war and the increase in wealth, education etc. The truth is there never was this harmonious place called the uk, women starved to death fighting for the right to vote, 276 years in the slave trade, women had no place in the church, children and working classes working in crap conditions, all these groups today have won various freedoms, take the workers, they have rights like you and me, because of rise of unions etc, I can tell you countless stories of union corruption and abuses of power, of course there will all be abuses of power, but without them the majority of workers would still be working in crap conditions etc, and you know doubt have alist of pc uniion stories, but thats still not the point, I am a critic of extremism and suffering that results on innocent people wheter it is PC, christian whatever, its the same thing

We agree on more than you may think, dave!!
I too, am against extremeism, however our definitions may well differ.
I take extremeism to include the eradication of free speech, the right to practise ones own religion and the right to do as you wish, subject to the harm to others principle I mentioned in an earlier post. I do not take extremeism to include airing ones right to free speech, providing the orator is not inciting violence or hatred, or waving the flag of my nation during a football match.
I am by the way, a flag waver. I am also suprised that this has some kind of negative connortation. Do people really have a problem with patriotism? Almost every Asian shop I have been in has religious depictations and flags behind the counter. I have no problem with this.
I do not debate, either, based on historical "we were bastards in the empire" type arguments. As Kivver will testify, I debated this with him and applying modern standards to the behaviour of the 18th and 19th centuries is nonsensical.
Finally, I was not on a debating society at uni. for the very good reason I never went!!:-((
I would be very happy, though to be a member of one, or a political party, if I could find one that I agreed with in most respects!!
Alan

Just a little something to think about. I went to a little country town recently after a walk in the Malvern Hills. A place called Ledbury. Went to one cafe (nice white english people inside) at 3.45, said on the door closed at 4.00, they would NOT serve any food or even make a sandwich (they would make a cup of Tea) because they were closing at 4pm. We walked all the way round the town with the same response in another place. At dead on 4.00pm we reached a cafe run by what seemed like Chinese people with the owners just finished tiding up. They welcomed us with open arms and made us a lovely baquette and cup of tea. Pity the lovely white English people didnt treat us just the same 15 minutes before closing time let alone at closing time.

Hew, if someones a flag waver, thats down to the individual my own brother is and I am not, the main point of patriotism as u well know being such a well travelled and educated chap, is it has historically and still today has been used to legitimise all sorts of cruel wars and corruption and more often than not it is used by nationalists to jstify their behaviour, thats a fact, and getting to the point innocent people die because of hate, thats got nothing to do with worst cases of pc, I totally agree, it doesnt matter what a person does waving a flag, putting up a poster to their religious guru, footballer even for that matter, cant agree about looking at the behaviuor of the past, if you dont, you continue to make the same mistakes of the past, as I said the mistakes of the past include 160 million human beings dieing in the 20th century, out of 6 of my friends who proclaim to be patriots they also display views that can be descirbed as hateful, thats just my experience, jsut like the english football supporter, with his union jack hat, who gos on to hurl hate at a black player ten minutes later.It doenst matter whether someones a patriot, religious, political or an atheist, if someone hates there has to be a limit or curb otherwise the result as you know is always mindless violence and suffering. I have a friend who is aborn again christian who would probably force everybody to christiany if he could get away with it, but he cant, hence free speech can only go so far and must be limited dependent on the persons motives. If hate rules remember me and you would never be able to have this discussion
Me and you agree we are both against extremism, we both believe in tolerance, i believe people who hate do not give a shit about democracy or the common good, and cannot be allowed to live out their fantasys whether a patriot,religious fanatic or homophobe. Attacking so called political correctness has been become the past time of the right wing, who do not give a shit about anybody and always need a victim. Rant over must get some work done.
By the way kivver people are people whethter they are english or chinese, I had a scotish friend who invited me to linlithgow, that night I was attacked by 10 scotish youths proclaiming to being partriotic and telling me I should get back over the border because they hated the english, my irish mate with me was not impressed as hew was called an english c - - - -. The waiter in my favourite chinese restaurant was the most miserable bloke I ever met, but the food is great and fianlly after a couple of years I now get a smile and a complimentary drink

Dave,
The flag has been hi-jacked by extremeist hate groups. You are right. But PC has too been hijacked by those who wish to impose their values on others. Cannot see the difference myself. And just as PC recruits extremeism, extremeism recruits PC.
My point on past ways was that we lived then in an era when sticking kids up chimneys was acceptable (sometimes I think it still should be!!) and we should not judge whether this was morally acceptable then, just whether it is now.
If we really wish to see moderation in this country, then all views and traditions and beliefs should be treat in an equitable way, proportionate to the society holding them.
PC has introduced two things that are calamitous.
1) Disproportionment. In this, the majority are sidelined for the wishes of the majority and disproportionate amounts of time and money are spent on minority causes.
Examples include the Mosque in Pentonville again, where a new multi million pound building was erected for a few inmates to worship, while the rest use a small and rather ancient multi-denominational chapel. Please explain this in non PC terms to the inmates of Jewish, Christian, Hindu or Seikh faith in there.
Or what about the Muslim council who are approached for input to all new legislation eminating from the government? This means that UK Muslims have, in effect 2 votes! Proportionate?
2) a twisting of the English language. If anyone can ever explain to me any circumstances where discrimination can be positive, I take my hat off to them. It is a negative thing. Period. If anyone can explain to me why Baa baa black sheep is offensive to blacks yet Moo moo jersey cow is not offensive to residents of that wonderfull isle then I will be similarly impressed.
Extremeism may result in hate, but its roots are in the unfairness which is fostered by PC and the growing feeling that the majority are being sidelined. Attacking the flag and the extremeist groups who have hijacked it is to attack the symptoms, not the disease.
And this is why even extreme political parties must have their voice heard. To understand why they have turned to extremeism and try to prevent it. To ignore them, as PC advices, is to encourage greater extremeism or recruit to their masses, for surely the membership of a party such as the BNP must currently be smaller than the number who fundamentally support them.
Alan

PS Dave.
Travelled, Yes. Educated, No.
But I did get a "C" in woodwork, if you ever need a coffee table knocking up!!
;-)
Alan

al - ''the university of life'', the biggest education of all, that is from some someone who went university in his thirties. also used to be a carpenter so i could knock you up a table too lol.