Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Davai,
"Instead of reducing Britains debt whilst the going was good, they spent more and
more... benefits for everyone, hey, come to Britain, we will give you a house and enough to live on..".

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History often is a b.. and bites back.

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If the Thatcher government hadn't sold of the "Nation's Silver" (McMillan), at prices grossly below their probable values to subsidised the "taxation “reforms”, or “reductions", and rewarding the more wealthy in society, then they may have been able to "repair" and upgrade the "infrastructure" and lousy state of NHS, social services, schools etc. which had been degraded during the “tory” controlled government for 15years period up to the 1997 election.

Also, if the revenue from North Sea “Oil” had not been squandered and been utilised to upgrade the above, then the decline in heavy and medium industry (destroyed during the Thatcher period) may have been moderated. (“It’s alright, the pit-head baths is a super-market now” comes to mind.)

Instead, during that period we had the rush to the Financial Services, which served well for a short term "buck". (Unfortunately, they provided the environment for some of the problems, which started becoming evident 2005- to the present period. (Blair and Gordon, were walking on water, egged on by a large percentage of the country, including many of those in the tory party, who were often demanding greater financial de-regulation and at the same time working for the “destruction” of the “EC”. , rather than working for “reformation” and improvement in its structure. (They were “in” Europe, not for its possible potential, or its long term benefits, but were attempting to get as much short term gain from it as possible, as they thought advantageous for themselves. Rather than considering what would be for the benefits for the whole of “Europe”, many were considering immediate gratification as their goals. Britain was not the only guilty party, but the UK and some of the other countries are responsible for the present debacle. There were some in politicians in the UK as well as some European leaders calling out for greater “financial and fiscal” regulations. If they latter had been successful then the present problems may have been avoided.

The “wealth fare and social services” and “social services” are necessary “evils”, with all or some of their weaknesses and failings. Many will have to resort to them, even though they may not think so at the moment.

There are abuses, but trying to remedy them without provoking other unforeseen problems is difficult. Sometimes, there is a protective use to blind eye.
I can recall with friends ruminating forty to fifty years ago on “how” to make changes, or stop the “abuse of society” by the “social services” and by the “individuals”, who thought or, felt they depended on them. Often, it seemed that to be successful, that we would have to become the abusers.

Again, defining abuse, or abusers, often depended, on where you are standing at the moment.

A few questions which puzzle me are:

1) Where has all the money which has disappeared from the market gone, and if this is being held as “cash”?
2) If it is, is the “cash” being devalued. (Perhaps, the reason for the squawking against QE and printing money.)
3) In that the government is now suggesting that an increased in “borrowing” is the now the “in thing” and good for the public once again, is the bunch in power at the moment, just another of money lenders?
4) Although, I believe in the market, is there a limit to how long the economy and wealth of a country can dependant on its simple GDP? (Does infinity exist.)

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Time for my glass of wine!

I think you have had a few already. :-))

And Brown sold off the Gold.

The so called "Nation's Silver" was a loss making British rail and BT , the water companys , and british Gas, ect: were not allowed under nationalization rules to compete in the open market place in other area's.

the revenue from North Sea “Oil” was squandered by Labour , just as they squandered a strong low debt economy left by the out going conservative government

For me it would be frightening to see Labour in power today. We could well be another Greece with their out of control spending.

Alds,

Look at the reasons for the said "sell off" of gold and try and understand what trying to resolves current problems with the gold standard in place would be like if the UK had stuck with it.

Check what the subsidies for railways are currently.

Check back and look at the lack of government investments during the Thatcher period.

Who restricted competition in the market.

Both Tory and Labour governments did so for ideological reasons.

Rules can be updated or modified, but were often used for ideological reasons by both major parties.

I am not certain that the industries you quote are a success story for the general public since privatisation, although a lot of public money has past into the hands of a few.

The profits could be going into society as a whole.

Bail outs for public industries is no different to that of some private industries, only less obvious.

Strange how private companies like subsidies in one form or another. But also like holding on to any profits.

A nationalise industry can be run as efficiently as a private industry, if that is the only motivation for its being,

Bleat about banks and other large industries going burst and being bail out by the "state".

I am sure you would be happy to see your family going to some of the antiquated hospitals and schools left by the Thatcher administration. That is where a large amount of money went and another large drain was the stupidity of the Iraq war and the mishandling and involvement in Afghanistan.

As far as Greece is concerned, the present chancellor of this country is utilising the same failing economic policies and strategies as have been introduced in Greece.
These policies are leading to a contraction of the economy and lack of growth.

The UK is becoming a another basket case. The value of "money" (£sterling) is being protected in the short term only.

The market rise over last few days is base mainly on the banks, which are being subsidised by the "state".

If I was a direct money lender, even I could make short term money on a deal the government is giving them.

(Again protecting their own at the expense of the country, based on short term outlook.)

Part of the reason the economy is bad at the moment is due to lack of faith in it by the business community and public in general.

If the supposed cut off "interest" or "loan" rate on bonds is about 7% before it cripples a country, consider the effects the 10 or more %, the "true" rates of borrowing, has on a small business has. (Current rates offered to many small businesses.)

Get a primer on economics, don't believe it all, and then think.

Ps. I am lucky I bought bank stocks. Not sure how long I will hold them.

As far as what I consider to be your rants about immigrant and the unemployed are concerned, they are minor contributors to the UK economic problems and are a diversion to the country's real problems.


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Edited

Dreams,

I think the UK is falling into the same trap as Greece has been "forced".

Merkel is playing a harsh long term game, I think aimed at closer political and fiscal integration of a reduced Europe. I think she would settle an integration of a smaller number of countries and would be happy to see the back of UK.

Euro was doomed from day one , same as all other attempts to fix exchange rates begining in modorn times with the Bretton Woods agreement in the 1940's.

Sooner it rolls over and dies the better for everyone imo.

Regarding the sell off of national industries, I believe there were two main reasons for this, one to make them (more) competitive and secondly to remove the huge liability called pensions from the public purse.
2517

Was there no other way to make them competitive!

Perhaps, by paying the Executives higher incomes?

Pensions, umm. Questionable.

I'm sure there were other solutions but nationalised industries were notoriously uncompetitive as well as being reluctant and slow to change.
Pension liabilities, were they not removed from the public purse?
2517

I think it was future liabilities for pensions.


Pensions are again thorny.

Partly they appeared good in the public sector but initially were as an incentive, along as other "benefits" to get people into and stay in the public services.

I think many stayed because of the "safety" or "security" of the jobs.

(Many, in periods from the late 60s and 70s migrate from Universities and some professions into industry and abroad due to salaries being pegged back and lower than they could get abroad.)

When you consider the tax advantages of "private" pension of some in failing businesses to-day, I think the government is attempting scapegoat and demonise the public sector for the structural changes it wishes to make.

The price of doing so, may be higher than they expect.

I am not thinking that reforms are not necessary, but evolution is better than revolution.

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Is our Merve a sign up member of the tory party as he seems to be trying to take over the chancellor's job and save faces:

Extract from Digital Look's extract from Sunday times:

Sir Mervyn King has told Britain’s banks to run down their cash reserves in a surprise U-turn that will raise the value of last week’s rescue package for the economy to close to 300bn pounds. The governor of the Bank of England has quietly given permission for banks to release part of the huge cash piles he has ordered them to build up over the past three years. Analysts estimate the radical shift in policy could see 150bn pounds — most of which is now invested in gilts — released for loans to companies and households. It comes on top of two headline-grabbing schemes unveiled last week under which the government will lend up to 140bn pounds to banks, The Times reports.

North America - now who would have thought that!

Global weight gain more damaging than rising numbers

Researchers say that increasing levels of fatness around the world could have the same impact on global resources as an extra billion people.

The team estimated the total weight of people on the planet and found that North America had the highest average.

Although only 6% of the global population live there, it is responsible for more than a third of the obesity.

Alan Turing: why the tech world's hero should be a household name

The life and achievements of Alan Turing - the mathematician, codebreaker, computer pioneer, artificial intelligence theoretician, and gay/cultural icon - are being celebrated to mark what would have been his 100th birthday on 23 June.

To mark the occasion the BBC has commissioned a series of essays to run across the week, starting with this overview of Turing's legacy by Vint Cerf.

I wonder what he would have made of this story:-

US's IBM supercomputer overtakes Japan's Fujitsu as world's fastest

Staggering - "The computer is capable of calculating in one hour what otherwise would take 6.7 billion people using hand calculators 320 years to complete if they worked non-stop."

Hi Davai,

I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.
Most big problems that desperately need to be sorted, would put the incumbent party in a no win position if they did what was required.
Financial policy (banks especially), pensions, long term care, health, crime, immigration etc etc, all require a vast change of direction, which no political party is prepared to take.
And when it comes to cleaning up our still, corrupt political parties and the EU, no party, in power or not, will do anything more than political tweaking, as stopping the gravy train would be like turkeys voting for Xmas.

Chuckles,

If I thought you had any chance on getting your policies through, you would get my vote.
But seriously, most of what you advocate makes 100% sense.
I say most because forcing Rebeca Brookes to have her haircut is going a tad too far, as I can't see this improving her looks one iota.

Greek

Staggering - "The computer is capable of calculating in one hour what otherwise would take 6.7 billion people using hand calculators 320 years to complete if they worked non-stop."

I read that if you started a computer counting from zero when it reaches a number [ can't remember what number ] it start's back counting from zero.

Maybe God or what created the cosmos stop's science treading on its toes.

Probably 42! :-)

Antonis Samaras begins Greece 'national coalition' talks

The leader of the party that narrowly won Greece's election has begun talks to form a coalition, saying he wants to forge a "national consensus".

Antonis Samaras, of the New Democracy party, on Monday met President Karolos Papoulias to be given a formal mandate.

Mr Samaras said he would seek changes in the terms of a bailout agreement reached with the EU and IMF.

http://cplus.about.com/od/learnc/ss/csharptutorial_7.htm

Why people especially politicians find it difficult to understand the EU and the failure of the current bail outs, I have no idea.

If your in a boat that has a hole in its bottom, you try to save it by bailing out.
Eventually if the hole becomes so big that the water is coming in quicker than you can bail it out, it matters not how big the bucket is, eventually you have to abandon boat and swim for it.
The hole in the EU boat reached the water coming in quicker than being bailed out stage long ago.

Simples.

aldwickk - its quite interesting to see how analogies change - from your link -

"Think of a spaceship. It has weapons, crew, shields, velocity and location in 3 dimensions. "

When I was a techie I used analogies based around morris minors and slow lanes on the M1!