This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

We agree on more than you may think, dave!!
I too, am against extremeism, however our definitions may well differ.
I take extremeism to include the eradication of free speech, the right to practise ones own religion and the right to do as you wish, subject to the harm to others principle I mentioned in an earlier post. I do not take extremeism to include airing ones right to free speech, providing the orator is not inciting violence or hatred, or waving the flag of my nation during a football match.
I am by the way, a flag waver. I am also suprised that this has some kind of negative connortation. Do people really have a problem with patriotism? Almost every Asian shop I have been in has religious depictations and flags behind the counter. I have no problem with this.
I do not debate, either, based on historical "we were bastards in the empire" type arguments. As Kivver will testify, I debated this with him and applying modern standards to the behaviour of the 18th and 19th centuries is nonsensical.
Finally, I was not on a debating society at uni. for the very good reason I never went!!:-((
I would be very happy, though to be a member of one, or a political party, if I could find one that I agreed with in most respects!!
Alan

Just a little something to think about. I went to a little country town recently after a walk in the Malvern Hills. A place called Ledbury. Went to one cafe (nice white english people inside) at 3.45, said on the door closed at 4.00, they would NOT serve any food or even make a sandwich (they would make a cup of Tea) because they were closing at 4pm. We walked all the way round the town with the same response in another place. At dead on 4.00pm we reached a cafe run by what seemed like Chinese people with the owners just finished tiding up. They welcomed us with open arms and made us a lovely baquette and cup of tea. Pity the lovely white English people didnt treat us just the same 15 minutes before closing time let alone at closing time.

Hew, if someones a flag waver, thats down to the individual my own brother is and I am not, the main point of patriotism as u well know being such a well travelled and educated chap, is it has historically and still today has been used to legitimise all sorts of cruel wars and corruption and more often than not it is used by nationalists to jstify their behaviour, thats a fact, and getting to the point innocent people die because of hate, thats got nothing to do with worst cases of pc, I totally agree, it doesnt matter what a person does waving a flag, putting up a poster to their religious guru, footballer even for that matter, cant agree about looking at the behaviuor of the past, if you dont, you continue to make the same mistakes of the past, as I said the mistakes of the past include 160 million human beings dieing in the 20th century, out of 6 of my friends who proclaim to be patriots they also display views that can be descirbed as hateful, thats just my experience, jsut like the english football supporter, with his union jack hat, who gos on to hurl hate at a black player ten minutes later.It doenst matter whether someones a patriot, religious, political or an atheist, if someone hates there has to be a limit or curb otherwise the result as you know is always mindless violence and suffering. I have a friend who is aborn again christian who would probably force everybody to christiany if he could get away with it, but he cant, hence free speech can only go so far and must be limited dependent on the persons motives. If hate rules remember me and you would never be able to have this discussion
Me and you agree we are both against extremism, we both believe in tolerance, i believe people who hate do not give a shit about democracy or the common good, and cannot be allowed to live out their fantasys whether a patriot,religious fanatic or homophobe. Attacking so called political correctness has been become the past time of the right wing, who do not give a shit about anybody and always need a victim. Rant over must get some work done.
By the way kivver people are people whethter they are english or chinese, I had a scotish friend who invited me to linlithgow, that night I was attacked by 10 scotish youths proclaiming to being partriotic and telling me I should get back over the border because they hated the english, my irish mate with me was not impressed as hew was called an english c - - - -. The waiter in my favourite chinese restaurant was the most miserable bloke I ever met, but the food is great and fianlly after a couple of years I now get a smile and a complimentary drink

Dave,
The flag has been hi-jacked by extremeist hate groups. You are right. But PC has too been hijacked by those who wish to impose their values on others. Cannot see the difference myself. And just as PC recruits extremeism, extremeism recruits PC.
My point on past ways was that we lived then in an era when sticking kids up chimneys was acceptable (sometimes I think it still should be!!) and we should not judge whether this was morally acceptable then, just whether it is now.
If we really wish to see moderation in this country, then all views and traditions and beliefs should be treat in an equitable way, proportionate to the society holding them.
PC has introduced two things that are calamitous.
1) Disproportionment. In this, the majority are sidelined for the wishes of the majority and disproportionate amounts of time and money are spent on minority causes.
Examples include the Mosque in Pentonville again, where a new multi million pound building was erected for a few inmates to worship, while the rest use a small and rather ancient multi-denominational chapel. Please explain this in non PC terms to the inmates of Jewish, Christian, Hindu or Seikh faith in there.
Or what about the Muslim council who are approached for input to all new legislation eminating from the government? This means that UK Muslims have, in effect 2 votes! Proportionate?
2) a twisting of the English language. If anyone can ever explain to me any circumstances where discrimination can be positive, I take my hat off to them. It is a negative thing. Period. If anyone can explain to me why Baa baa black sheep is offensive to blacks yet Moo moo jersey cow is not offensive to residents of that wonderfull isle then I will be similarly impressed.
Extremeism may result in hate, but its roots are in the unfairness which is fostered by PC and the growing feeling that the majority are being sidelined. Attacking the flag and the extremeist groups who have hijacked it is to attack the symptoms, not the disease.
And this is why even extreme political parties must have their voice heard. To understand why they have turned to extremeism and try to prevent it. To ignore them, as PC advices, is to encourage greater extremeism or recruit to their masses, for surely the membership of a party such as the BNP must currently be smaller than the number who fundamentally support them.
Alan

PS Dave.
Travelled, Yes. Educated, No.
But I did get a "C" in woodwork, if you ever need a coffee table knocking up!!
;-)
Alan

al - ''the university of life'', the biggest education of all, that is from some someone who went university in his thirties. also used to be a carpenter so i could knock you up a table too lol.

i agree with most of what u people say i agree with alan in the whos society is it anyway part

me i could not care if ur 15 stone or 80 makes no diffrence to me

i get ur point but my point is this

pc has dragged most societies to there knees

but there is one society that does not go along with pc and for that i must applaude them(the muslims)

they do what they like and they know if they say to our society that they feel opressed (in a society they choose to live in i might add) our pc do gooders will back down to them

we the majority are not the oppressors here we are the oppressed in my opinion

i have no great love for any religion christian muslim and jew but as long as ppl want to come to our country they should go with out laws and rules

lets see them build a chapel or church in one of there prisons for the poor wee westerners

i think not

which leads me to the point of whos society is it

its the society that can stand up for itself that will preval all else will fall

it has been written in blood from the crack of dawn wether ppl like it or not

and another thing the ira always let the authorities know when they were letting there weapons of the other mob dont so in my opinion u cannot label them with this brush in any way like them or loath them

just an opinion mind but to say im wrong in it says history is wrong on the society part i mean

Im crap at wookwork, so you never know guys I might put some orders in for xmas!

roflmao

are you allowed to say xmas

roflmao

Winterfest.
;-)

roflmao

Power, the ultimate addiction and illusion, comes in various forms and degrees. Those who believe they have power are consistently looking for ways and reasons to exercise those power - sometime brutal, often indirect and in disguise.

The creator of the phrase "force as the last resort" has a great sense of ironic humour.
In practice, force is often the end to the means.

Alternatively; "If you shall seek peace, prepare for war".
Don't know who said it, but it was someone cleverer than me.
Not that that narrows it down much.
Alan

Just a wee question to get people going again on the original line of this thread.
What is your position at the moment vis Iran?
Almost the whole world has asked them not to do the nuclear work they are doing as it will provide weapons grade material, and said they should develop their nuclear power capability under the supervision of the UN.
They refuse and continue with their chosen path. What should the world do? Allow them to continue as it is their right to develop their power resources as they see fit or get tougher and tougher until they bow to the international pressure? And how tough should we get?
If we do not impose any sanctions, are we afraid of an unstable country potentially becoming an atomic power?
It would be interesting to gauge peoples views now in case we end up with a similar thread in 2-3 years time about an "illegal" war in Iran.
Alan

Iran is next for the chop, and Iraq will be willing to help, plus a lot of other Arabic countries.
They have unlocked the Nuclear Doors today, they will repent at leisure.

Alan wooden spoon for post 195!!

I hate to say it but I think we should follow in the footsteps of the French... Our taxes should be used to serve the people and not a democratic ego...

Should Iran become an atomic power then a very done to them. I'm sure the government has the money to purchase an atomic weapon anyway, and I can think of plenty of contries that would sell them one!

An Atomic weapon is one thing, having the technology to deploy it is something else. Pakistan is a nuclear power, so is India, neither have missiles that could deploy the power furhter than their own doorstep......

Explosive,
Not sure what is awarded after the wooden spoon but you have just won one!!!
Who needs a delivery system like a missile when you have a whole army of martyrs to choose from???
Neither Pakistan, nor India have a consistent history of Suicide attacks. The bulk of the Arab world has. Further, while the asian subcontinent has its own internal problems it has not been considered as a threat to the west. If only the same were true of the Arab world, and the seemingly endless numbers from those lands and religions prepared to strap high explosives to their bodies and wander into market places.
Still, you have made your position clear and I can't argue with that. We let the Iranians do whatever they wish, without any form of sanction or reprisal.
Alan

Alan, my point exactly, lets patrol our borders and cities catching terrorists instead of invading else where.
Also high explosives can be strapped onto a persons body. Would have to be a very big person to strap on a nuclear device or atomic weapon!

Soon after Iraq, I started to notice the odd signs slowly preparing us for an Iran invasion. Getting more signs and hints now. So, one way or another, it shouldn't be long
. Probably by June this year. Latest June 2007 providing a war boost in time of ression and to allow for more time till the next election.

etc etc

All IMHO, NAG etc

We have enough works to do, challenges to face, problems to solve, things to build and maintain in our society without inviting more burdens and troubles.

Came across many people who are falling over themselves scrambling to get positions
(they label it responsibility) to bark orders and be pleased with themselves ... But I have seldom met a person who has more power and ability, by himself/herself, to create than to destroy ...