Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

do i take it that you do not believe in competitive sport either, as that means there'll be losers (can't possibly have that) or in the grammar school system which de facto encourages the (relatively) talented to be even more so?

personally, i'ld very much like to see companies being financially encouraged to take apprentices and similar ...... as it stands, it's very very difficult for someone who has taken a plumbing or building course or similar to get proper and most necessary field experience

OSBORNE IS JUST A BIG LIAR liar liar

the only good thing this gov as done is wipe out thebastard libs
that is great news they are parasites

UKIP are our only hope

Cynic,

I played sport at reasonably high levels and likewise, bridge and chess and enjoyed doing so.

Yes, I was competitive, but had most pleasure from "close" games rather than being overwhelmed, or overwhelming opposition.

I enjoyed the satisfaction of the increasing my own skills, etc..

Being beaten at chess by my grandchildren is satisfying, as was being beaten by some young squash player who I had help to coach.

Also, I was a grammar school boy and thought that the "secondary modern" schools should have had improvement in level of teaching, rather than destruction of some of them.

I prefer a well thought out, and well introduced and practical comprehensive system of education in general, but thought the manner the system was introduced was rushed and flawed.

But as you realise I am not grumbling about that, but I am grumbling about the syphoning off of "taxes" to pay for schools, which will disproportionally "financed" for a "selected" group, ie. the vociferous supposed "upward mobile" middle class.

Regarding apprentices, I think the introduction of the "said" comprehensive education system and changes to universities and technical colleges was again damaging to apprentices and education in general.

But the biggest loss of apprentices was due to the Thatcherite policies, which were applauded by the "blue rinse" brigade and their cohorts and crucified industry at the same time, in favour of the "financial" industry.

I wonder which school tinker went to?

If it was the school of hard knocks, it wasn't hard enough.

fred - i'm far from convinced that your line of argument would actually stand up to investigation by someone who actually knew what he was talking about ..... certainly i would be very interested to know why apprenticeships are so readily available in NL and, i think, in Germany, but very clearly not in UK

Cynic,

I don't know how the figures work out for the countries I think you indicate, but would have to relate them against heavy and light industries in those countries.

One of the effects of our loss (possibly necessary) of heavy industries and cut backs was the reduction of need of "apprentices", also cuts backs on "apprentices" was due to some industries expecting with technical advances to need a less skilled "services" in the future.

(I was teasing my garage about them not being mechanics any longer and just changing old parts for new. The person I was talking true replied that they had become skilled fitters, but knew where the new bit was necessary.)

How these factors played in NL and Germany is concerned I don't know, but post war relationships and "technical" advances were changed and applied more easily in those countries and in the UK this process was obstructed by unions and lousy industrial relationships and the worn out/ out of date plant.

The process of some of the Thatcherite changes were probably necessary. The rate of that change was obscene.

Similar to the destruction of the Coal Industry, which had a tremendous number of apprentices.

Part of the problems which we have in the now "uncaring" society can be related back to that period.

----------------

Another reason was Blair's obsession with getting 50% of the country's kids to go to Uni regardless of the fact that apprenticeships would have been better for many.

Now we have lost those apprenticeships and can't afford the 50% of kids attending uni.

.

Dil - i agree with the thrust of your comment .... unfortunately, uni has been held out as the holy grail, whereas many and perhaps even most are only capable of modest degrees from third rate institutions and in worthless subjects .... the graduates are then totally bewildered that they are effectively unemployable

that most degrees could actually be completed in 2 years rather than the 3 allocated is another possible matter for discussion ..... i can't remember how many hours lectures per week are (generally) now given and/or obligatory, but it is risibly few

.

http://youtu.be/E4yzvwVFW3w

Apprentice decisions are "made and payed for" by the Employer in conjunction with the particular Trade Union in that Industry and know one else. It is not a job for Government at all, so lets get that straight. The destruction of our manufacturing is a matter of fact and not opinion in this Country by the Conservative Gov. from the late 80's to this day.. Another historical fact.. despite that fact annoying some people.

Dil,

I thought at the time that the Blair policy, of change of admission policy and university education to allow 50% of "youth", in order to pursue some "Mickey mouse" courses was crazy.

It may be that part of the policy was to massage unemployment figures of the period.

However, as you know for yourself, some are slow learners and I think that the opportunities for ongoing education should be life-long. The education does not have to be restricted to academic courses and could be of a vocational or self fulfilling nature.

--------------------------

The beauty of some of the "old" Techs" was that many entered from or on a "apprenticeship" bases, then went on to more academic courses, research and later to develop engineering businesses.

stan - imo your post is badly flawed ..... trades unions have minimal or no influence (thank goodness!) over whether apprenticeships should be offered ..... you're right that many companies, especially small ones, cannot afford to offer apprenticeships, but assuredly the gov't of any hue can make them more financially attractive to employers ..... plumbers, electricians, brickies etc etc are often sole traders (i think that's the right term) who absolutely do not have the financial ability to offer apprenticeships, yet there is a dire shortage of such skilled artisans, but "newcomers" need and are often required to have "field experience" ...... how are they meant to get it?

fred if education is the way to making money why is that 98% of people that i do no
are either on the dole or working in a factory .
I had a uni guy or girl from a top uni ever year for 20 years .
only met one with any common sense and most were thick as a plank
and one girl told me they will get you the papers no matter our thick you are .
so the de gree is worthless . and today companys no this .
so they train there own workers

fred . i have no education started to work at 11 now 64 retired at 54 and want for nothing .
but do care that the uk is now a cesspit .
all the MPs over the last 20 years have been rubbish filling there own pockets
and not interested in the country .

it is time to start again vote UKIP and give them the chance
cameron is a BLOODY WIMP

Tanker,

I hope you doctor, dentist, lawyer, teachers were educated and went to suitable universities etc..

Perhaps, I should remove doctor from that list.

Cynic, please read my post again.

Part of the particular Trade Union's role is to look after the interests of Apprentices as well as the Journeyman/Women. Whether the Companies employees have Trade Union representation is another matter. National Grid is a good example as to how a good Apprentice system should work for "all" in the long run.

The smaller Companies likewise but on a smaller scale of course, as for a Sole Trader more often then not they are usually happy to be a "one man" band with the wife doing the admin stuff, As training more people who are not family members is only making competion for them in the future and would threaten their own ability to get a better price for their services i.e. Plumbers.