Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

The latter is the need for "central European court".

The referendum has little to do with trade. The Conservatives have always liked the trade aspects of the EU. The areas that cause problems are the creeping centralist regulations and legislation, and the trend towards federalism.

Labour promised a referendum on the changes to the EU treaty but the treaty changes were scrapped. When the changes were reanimated Labour refused the referendum on the basis that the Lisbon treaty was different. Of course it wasn't and they knew it. Cameron was then unable to have a referendum as the Lisbon treaty had given away our veto on changes and legislation.

A lot of people are in favour of membership of a trading bloc but NOT a United States of Europe. The trend towards federalism is largely a goal of the various socialist parties.

I am a big fan of the EU as a trading bloc. It was called "The Common Market" for a good reason. Without a change in our relationship with the EU, I will vote to leave.

how big a change and in what specific aspects would make you change your vote?
do you think uk will be allowed to cherry pick?

i fear the federalist bogeyman will be glossed over - i.e. it will be ignored in the pretence it does not exist, when of course we all know it does

Both,

As can be seen I am in general in favour of greater integration into EU and will try to process my thoughts why.

But as long as negotiations in the EU is done with the interest of the EU as a whole and for the long term betterment of the whole, I would go along with minor "discomforts".

Also, having somebody blustering their way to the table and demanding the best cuts to be theirs, backed up by the threat that they will go home if they don't have all that they want does not seem the best way to enthuse the others at the party.

From the little I know, and the Europeans I have met, there appears to be a greater feeling for and enthusiasm of being "Europeans" and for the "European Cause and Greater Integration". Much of the politics of the UK seems to be based on blowing up of misinformation, narrow self-interest (I think some to do with the Financial Markets) and the prejudices of little Englanders.

I can understand why the French might be beastly to us.

I wonder in future what the European Contracts for Armaments, Engineering R&D will look like if we are outside the market.

Family and neighbours come first when negotiation are carried out. Same currency, laws and rules lubricate deals when they are made.

The USA works in generally very efficiently generally.

I get the impression that there are several countries that are unhappy with all the central control. We may trigger a general discussion about the long term future of the EU. The use of the Euro was not thought out adequately. It has become obvious that the Euro needs there to be more central control over the members' budgets. Interest rates are centrally controlled but countries are free to spend how they wish. To join the Euro there were strict convergence criteria such as inflation, deficit and interest rates. Of course once a country joined, the criteria could not be policed. Countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland spent like there no tomorrow. Within a short time from joining, these countries would not meet the joining criteria.

There are now only two solution to the Euro problem. One is to scrap the Euro and the other is federalism or at least central control of members' treasuries.

i think, but cannot prove, that there is a great deal of unrest within the eurozone ..... the general populace of countries like nl, france, germany and belgium (and uk) are very uncomfortable with the influx of foreign (other eu nationals) workers when unemployment among their own citizens is rising rapidly

like most people over here, i think you will find they are also appalled by the appalling greed and unaccountability of the MEPs .... they can see the way they swan from brussels to strasbourg in their chauffeured limos, stay in the best hotels, and eat at the best restaurants - and do bugger all for their fat pay cheques except work out how to spend more money on some un-needed building or set of offices in some trendy quarter or "case study" of something totally irrelevant

I would accept the latter.

All organisation have internal and external problems.

One hopes one can change, modify, admit the mistakes regarding internal administration and adjust the external environment. Preying on your neighbour for a quick buck in the long term is less rewarding.

Europe is beginning to think that is what the UK is trying to do.

(The necessary changes can be made, already the majority of the Europeans are speaking English. 8-) )

Cyn,

Sounds like they have the same opinion of traders.

==========

Immigration has its problems. I know when I was a student about 55 years ago I believed in the free flow of people and removal of interstate boundaries, but never saw that migration would be on the present scale, or promote the problems which it is doing.

I talk about this with my daughter and every time we consider a good solutions we find all the weaknesses.

Possibly, if the EU succeeds economically, then the reasons for European migration at the present levels may lessen.

But your "parents" and many of my wife's family migrated here for political and economic reasons.

Difficult to tell another's family that they are not permitted to come in.

more tomorrow, but suffice it for now to say that times change

The UK certainly needs Germany - but Germany also need us, and I'm sure that both parties would reach an agreement whereby they continued to enjoy that trade regardless of whether we were in or out.

And I've got to admit that Club Med anchovies and olives are incomparable, so we'd need to ensure their supply is uninterrupted if we quit.

I do like France - it's just a shame it's full of the French.

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't miss anything to do with Bulgaria or Romania, so I'll have a wash and then vote 'out'.

op osborne was on cnbc talking to sky news
he was grinning and smiling that he had taken money off pensioners
and making workers work longer .
and the report said that many would not reach pension age
osborne just smiled . horrible person is osborne

op BUY MRW UNDER VALUED BY 50P

fred - i can't remember, but wasn't your opening comment that you would vote NO? .... if so, that seems to have changed

anyway, back to my last observation yesterday ....
when both sets of grandparents came to this country at the very beginning of 20th century, i don't think there would have been any restriction at all, but then nor was there any state support or benefits.

by ww2, it was not easy to gain entry even for political asylum (the jews) and at the very least you needed sponsorship to show that you would not be leaning on the state for economic support

the west indian community was invited over from 1948 through early 50s (read about The Windrush) as the uk's labour force had been shredded once again by a devastating war. By that time, there was a fledgling NHS and i guess some other types of state support .... however, it should not be forgotten that jamaica and others were part of the commonwealth who, at that time, had automatic right of entry

this automatic right of entry was withdrawn within (say) the last 30 years (can't remember), and certainly there was a huge outcry when the hk chinese were refused except "by invitation"

however, the eu rules have opened an oil-tanker of problems with every tomasz (sorry of that name :-)), goran and ljuban now being allowed to come and work and/or to work the system to get housing, healthcare, unemployment benefit etc ..... this cannot be right when so many of our own youngsters (especially) cannot get jobs, let alone housing, no matter how hard they try

assuredly i am not suggesting a blanket ban on immigration, but i do believe that economic tests and other point system devices should be firmly implemented

sorry to be so long-winded

Cynic,

Even though frustrated by the EU and its integration I have nearly always been a believer in such.

Probably, the part of the attachment is emotional and commenced after hitch hiking around France an Belgium in the the the 50s and going to the 1958 Expo in Brussels.

At the time, didn't have much "faith" in the unions, but by affiliation was a member of the International Union of Students and meeting and making friends and talking on warm sunny nights at Cassis, (where I first had fish tail soup) became a fervent believer in the "unification" of Europe and hopeful harmony.

Britain was dismal at that time at that time, still worn down by the war and yet there seem to be optimism and a kindred feeling in France etc..

With all its problems the EU still seems sensible and beneficial to all within it.

I would be prepared to vote yes for staying in the EU and working for some reorganisation and greater integration.

I don't feel any less a Welshman in France than I do in England, but feel I am a European quite strongly.

Immigration, time for some revisions.

A 16-year-old boy was heard screaming for his life before he was fatally stabbed by a gang armed with knives and swords, residents said today.

The teenager, named locally as Hani Abou El-Kheir, was attacked in Pimlico, central London, shortly before 7pm yesterday evening and taken to a nearby hospital, but he died from his injuries two hours later.

Shocked residents living close to the scene on Lupus Street, claimed today that a gang of black and white teenagers were seen carrying out the attack.

Other witnesses have claimed that the victim's mother, named by locals as Pauline Hickey, rushed to the scene and was seen crying as she was kept behind a police cordon.
this is the uk 2013 no law and order we need be bring back the noose

Horsemeat found in burgers made for British supermarkets was imported from Poland
Patties supplied to Aldi, Lidl and Iceland contained up to 20% horse DNA
Raw meat delivered to Tesco contained as much as 29.1% horsemeat
Burger King also stopped using products supplied by the Irish firm



what do they expect anything goes in poland

When I have eaten horse meat I have enjoyed it.

8-)

You should try a steak of it sometime.

i have many times . but it did come from a good butchers shop not some flea pit in poland were they never wash there hands .

zebra is very nice meat

Did you inspect the Polish abattoir?

Or is your opinion based on your strongly held prejudices?