I am afraid TFC and myself rather highjacked the CHP thread on this subject, so have started a proper one.

Will cut and paste as necessary from CHP, where our opposing stances are self-apparent

ALAN - your Asian postmaster's experience is not confined to this country or his religion/race ...... there are certainly areas in Israel where the ultra-orthodox Hasidim will stone outsiders, even if they are fellow Jews.

I also find your comment re former no-go WI areas .... Are you not therfore admitting that this community has and has been permitted to integrate?

I would also strongly contend that it is the indigenous population who have the obligation and the ability to foster harmony and tolerance ..... however, it is a sad fact of life that the majority of the population is so bigotted and prejudiced and uneducated that anything that falls outside its comfort zone is automatically regarded and treated as alien.

' the majority of the population is so bigotted and prejudiced and uneducated that anything that falls outside its comfort zone is automatically regarded and treated as alien. '

Can you back up that statement with facts. If it was true then the BNP would be the main opposition party.

GOLDFINGER -as succinctly as i can, which i know will leave much unsaid .....

you wrote - "I have nothing against other races as long as they integrate into the traditional British life (whats left of it) but most incomers seem hell bent on trying to get us to change to their cultures and customs."

I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still.


Heroin and general drug abuse - this is not a modern let alone sudden phenomenon ..... no one is forced to turn to drugs; it is a choice ..... to blame the increase in usage on a certain sector of the community cannot be justified, for if there was no demand there would be no sale ...... if certain areas of the country have more Asian dealers than white, then that is a reflection of the social mix in that area, just as around here and in many other parts of the country, the dealers are white (Christians!), or in the various Chinese enclaves they are Chinese etc etc.

your interesting article says - "Its the first place Ive worked where parents ask me how I am, and actually want to know. He gives me a tour of the school, to prove that its a quiet, hardworking place. It is. I lose count of the bilingual support workers, mentors and learning assistants."

I write - is that not proof that at least some communities are doing their very best to integrate? ..... you can't have it both ways!

No Cynic,
It is not the responsibility of the indiginous population. It is firmly the responsibilty of the migrants. As we often hear at work, FIFO.
They have come here, I presume, because the conditions are more satisfactory. Please leave them as such. We have a wonderful culture and heritage, of tolerance and success. Of teaching and welcoming. Of offering opportunity to all and prejudice to none.
Uneducated does not wash. I am virtually uneducated, and happy to admit such. I am also very tired of the instant reply of bigot, idiot or racist when I express concerns over our towns and cities, and the areas where the indigenous population live as refugees in their own country. These areas exist and are caused by the nonsense approach of the soft handed liberals who foisted decades of statute on us making any reference to creed, colour or religion an offence.
Multi-culturalism does not, and never will work. We must acceept and respect those differences, but also conclude that any nation must have an over riding identity and a dominant culture, for if it does not, then it is not a nation at all, for it has no common interest outside of money. It is a loose collection of people chasing more for less.
if that opinion makes me an uneducated bigot, then I am happy to wear that badge as one of honour.
alan

Multi-culturalism does not, and never will work.

That is an untenable statement ...... The population of GB is multi-cultural by definition and has been for the last 1000 years and more! ...... are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Chinese, Asians, WIs, Jews etc still deemed to be "aliens" in your eyes? ...... you seem to be saying as much

Just a few points to move this discussion on a bit.
Firstly it would seem a few people here are sitting in foreign countries as immigrants, yet pumping their gums about immigration at home. No offense intended, but double standards???
Secondly, the tendancy for immigrants to stick within their own communities is natural, as it provides security for themselves in a strange environment. The british abroad are no exception & in many areas the british ex-pat community are the worst in adhering to their own customs & way of life, shunning the ways of 'foreigners'.
One last point I would make is that immigrants in this country fill many of the jobs which should be filled by our own indigenous population. But, surprise, surprise, it has been found that the younger immigrants work harder & for less money than our own british counterparts.
I agree that the U.K. gangs are of predominately Asian or Afro-Caribbean origin, but shame on our own system which allows them to operate without check. But, France is the same with huge North African immigration & subsequent ghettos & gang wars. Germany has it's Turkish immigrants, Italy the constant influx from the Balkans etc etc. However, the 'scum' element is a tiny minority, thankfully.
All imo of course, but lets not blame the jews for everything! They seem to be running Gibraltar without any problems.

thanks Harry, though it has often been said that the Jews are a persecuted race because they damn well deserve to be and would not know what to do with themselves or their humour, if they were not!

I should actually have mentioned in my own ramblings that an open-door policy for immigration is a recipe for disaster

Truly scholarly postings from Alan6 and G/F, Spitfire and Aldwick . . All based on cold hard facts and their OWN personnel expieriences ; and as such " straight from the horses mouth " . NOT mere theorizing !! ...Heres a little gem for you all . Recently a Lancashire town called Blackburn was ordered by Blairs central govt to house 400 Armenians .The local coucil and city planners were utterly horrrified as housing units, healthcare ,and adequate ammenities simply did not exist to serve their needs .. BUT !!!! The most vociferous and violent opposition to the Armenians came from uppity racist Pakistani residents/immigrants who claimed this area was there " patch " to do as they so wished ...EG Sell drugges , stimulate prostitution and impose their idiosyncracies on the indigineous population . ln addition they weakly claimed their women folk were not safe from Armenian men !! Touche' A tad ironic considering this tiny island has no room for such types, , and the manner in which they percieved the influx of Armenians is much the same as we view them !!! Have they no shame ???...They have some nerve . Their effing " patch " indeed ..Their "patch" is usually inntermitent soujourns in Armly gaol in LEEDS and with good reason , .They are a potential "time bomb" and the clock is ticking . ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................lncidentally Cynic this is 2007 and not the post war 1950's when the UK was economically on its knees, manpower was short ,and the govt was too busy paying back the usa for war debt from the Marshall plan to bother itself with the future ramifications of mass immigration . ....................................Driver ....The Left are finished,/ And anyway you in the UK havent even got a left of centre party ... Thankfully. Even liberal Holland has lurched to th`e right after a zealot from the middle east murdered a prominent journalist . .Even countries like the Ukraine , Poland , Belarus, Latvia.Lithuania , Slovakia,The Czech republic, and a host of Eastern Europeons were glad to thow off the shackles of the Left ..........Orwel put that leftish hoary fable to bed ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ ..

TFC .... would be interested to hear your (brief!) views on my post 26 which could equally apply to France

Finally the police cannot control many "no go" areas within the UK . So called "ZERO" tolerance" areas to boot . lmmigrants merely scoff and laugh at their impotence ......But the army could ably control our streets without a problem Bring them into the equation and u shall see a change overnight ,,,,

now try a sensible comment please!

Cynic , quit while your behind, your views have been blown out of the water.

No cynic. The population of the UK has not been multicultural for 1000 years.
Not a single mass migration, ever, has been of more than 1% of the indiginous population, until the 1950's.
Saxons, Romans, Normans, Jews, Moors, Poles, free French between them add up to less than 5%! Hardly multi-cultural.
Alien?? Not based on creed or colour or religion or how long they have inhabited a particular patch of earth. However by refusing to fit in with the accepted ways of the majority of the community, they alienate themselves. We all do. By how we dress, behave and live. By wearing hoodies, berber, gay pride T-shirts, burkhas, football kits or skullcaps we choose to alienate ourselves from mainstream society by making a statement of our differences. Choosing the group to which we belong.
this is totally acceptable and should be no cause for comment from anyone. Up until the point where society is forced into making changes, against the wishes of the majority, to allow for these groups.
I am opposed to racism, very strongly, but I am opposed equally strongly to positive discrimination, the brainchild of the liberal, educated elite. All discrimination is negative for someone.
There are about 168 countries of the world and there ways are all different. Their values and aspirations are never the same. Please find one that suits your lifestyle, and if that is the UK, then live here with my open armed invite and I will defend your right to do so with my last breath. If however, your intention is to benefit from our heritage while trying to change our cultural values then make your decision. Which do you value more. The enormous benefits of the UK citizenship or the doctrines of your own race / religion. Where these clash either moderate your values to those of the UK or give up the benefits of being here to satisfy your moral soul and move to a country who shares your ideals.
I do not consider that unreasonable and I do not intend it to sound like I am advocating a mass exodus of Dewsbury, Nottingham and leicester to Islamabad, or Golders Green and Alwoodly to Israel, or Birmingham to Jamaica. I am merely asking everyone of every colour to either improve the place or at least leave it as you find it, for the next generation.
Alan

Slightly off topic, but a bit of humour

Very good post, Allan.

Cynic lt does not apply to France iin any shape or form . Only 3 cities --Paris, Lyons and Marseille have immigration worthy of note .l could drive from Bordeaux to Rennes to La Rochelle and onto Brest and not set eyes on immigrants .....................Good huh ?

And one for religion as well

d'accord Alan .......once again an excellent posting . ,,,Dentist for me now ,,,,,,,,,shit it would be my luck to have a blackie who reads this very thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and payback lol,,lol Only teasing ,,,,,,,a'bientot @+ J ...

Cynic re to your post 24.......

you said....

"I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still."ENDS

You suggest that communities evolve over time and yes I couldnt agree more with you here on this point. The once local baker now lives in Crete I believe he as a boat for hire business, the once local butcher runs a bar in Benidorm and the once local bookie also runs a bar but its in Fuingerola.

Im left with little or no choice as I wish to stay put. This is hapenning more and more by the day, the indiginous population leaving and getting the 'hell out' and the immigrants moving in.

Were told house prices are going up all over the country, the truth is thats not correct. My house recently valued is worth just about what its worth was back in 1994. I dont benefit like some areas of the country and this is where I believe you are off track with your side of the debate.

It depends on where you live as to wether, immigration as benefited this country.

Goldgfinger i like you live in W.Yorks WF. and share an empathy in many of your views. Born in the very early sixties i've seen this area change beyond recognition, sadly for the worse in my view . Whils't not racist or bigoted i believe this goverment has let us down and i am opened minded on my vote in the next local elections including the BNP.