This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Alan - you have suprised me, a man that usually talks so much sense. There are lots of countries run by mad men are we going to invade them all, what about the Sudan?? I think the answer is no. Why, no oil or in the case of Afgasatan Bush's best mate runs a massive pipe line across the country. Ask the families of the dead troops here and the US. We all seem to of have forgot the many 100's of thousand of Iragis (they are human too) who lives have been ruined. I actually agree he should have been got rid of, but there was no planning of how all those different peoples could be brought together after the event. But that wasnt the main interest. Micheal Moorers film summed it all for me.

Never watched the film, Kivver, but I am a simple man and I believe very firmly that when a person or country openly acts outside of the law, to the detriment of other people / nations then they should be brought to book.
The policy being argued on here runs along 2 lines. Firstly the war was illegal. This is patently untrue. The 167 nations that make up the UN declared Iraqs actions illegal and that unless they ceased force would be used. I know there are a few oily international lawyers seeking to make a name for themselves by questioning this, but the facts remain.
Secondly that the world is now a more dangerous place than before. This a mare subjective question but I believe that the atrocities being played out in Sudan, Zimbabwe et al would be far worse were the leaders of these countries not looking over their respective shoulders at what the free world could do if it decided to.
Can you imagine what the world would be like if Iran and Korea had no fear whatsoever that illegal actions would bring retribution? Can you imagine what Mr Mugabe might do in Zimbabwe if all he had to fear were a few farmers?
I believe in the carrot of negotiation and inclusion, but I also believe in the stick of force when this fails as it did in Iraq.
What really galls me is the idea that Iraq was some kind of peace loving inclusive society prior to the invasion, that is now not a safe place to be. The killings are being committed by the same people who killed citizens for disagreeing with Saddam prior to the invasion. How quickly we forget the scenes of jubilation when Saddams statue was torn down.
I am even more galled when people claim that the majority of people did not back the war. Poll after poll before and during the conflict suggested just the opposite and I get very angry when a proven minority claim to be speaking on behalf of a democratic majority.
As a footnote, I see the peace loving Iraqis have yet to learn that threatening to kill innocent hostages is not a way to get what you desire. They have had free and fair elections, where the electorate is represented proportionatly, but as this doesn't suit some people, civil war has raged.
Could it possibly be that the Iraqis are very happy that they have democratic government and the freedoms associated with it and that other despots are ruthlessly destabilizing the area in order to cause the world to pause before enforcing the rule of law in the despots homelands. I think it could.
Alan

If there was only a minority of the UK who were against the war it was because of the Bush and Blair lies, anybody who gets involved with the US be it invading a small primative African country like Somali or fighting a poor Asian country like Vietnam knows what a compleat mess they make of it, and we should not have commited British ground troops to the war or after the war, unless called upon by the new Iraq goverment.

There was no new Iraqi government until very recently and their first action was to ask Allied troops to stay.
The reason for the war was nothing to do with the lies of anyone, it was very simply, a refusal by Iraq to co-operate with the international ruling bodys request for full and unhindered access to the areas the team wished to inspect. Iraq knew the consequences of failing to do this and chose not to.
As I keep pointing out, had we done nothing then what chance of any country, anywhere, giving a fig what the UN said. They would be a toothless talking shop.
Alan

Some well put points but how the strongest country in the world the USA pretend they are keepers of humanity when they act they do. It is now an accepted fact they are kidnapping anyone barely supected of being involved in anything they are against. They take them to a third world country and torture them mersilessly. If Iran acted the way the US are acting with these torture techniques (mostly innocent) Guantanamo bay or prisoners in Irag they would go mad and threaten to invade. At least we can proud of how our troops mostly behave and the yanks could learn a lot from us. There are also other countries that are breaking UN resolutions but there is no intention to invade.

Kivver,
We find common ground!!!
I have a distinct hatred for the Yanks and much of what they stand for. If the Un is going to outlaw anything, I suggest Disney and MacDonalds. They have ridden roughshod over many accepted practises and conventions, but at least they have stopped short of publically beheading innocents!
I was in Cuba last year and you should feel the pain of those welcoming and freindly people after decades of feeling the wrath of Uncle Sam. I do not support the USA, and when I am there next week I will almost certainly be arrested for lamping the first person who says have a nice day, but I cannot accept the war was anything but legal, and that the world is anything but better off without Saddam.
Frankly, if it were put correctly, I would support ultimatums being delivered to Iran, Korea, Zimbabwe, Sudan and others (One at a time!!) because I feel that they would now be taken seriously and complied with. I doubt this would have been the case if Iraq had proved it was much safer just to ignore the UN.
Alan

hewittalan6,

nobody told any lies? you must have been on another planet.

hewitt, I agree with your opinion in the first sentence.

I can see little difference from launching a missile from a battleship or plane and indiscriminately killing civilians for the good of the rest of that country and murdering a person (civilian) for the cause they think they are fighting for.
Both participants are doing their actions in cold blood.

I also find it a weak argument that first class civilised countries like America, Britain, France, India, Russia, China etc. are able to have nuclear weapons and assess to Nuclear Science while the second raters are not civilized enough to do so. Perhaps, America should be the only one in a position in to control the world economy by be the Nuclear Science and Energy etc.

It should also be remembered that the only countries who have used the Nuclear bomb and material has been America with acceptance by the British Government.

But the other pariah states and their people (lower classes) are not fit or capable of being responsible.

It is America who has abused the UN.

It is America (with or without Blair on an Ego trip) who has abused other countries by their threats of ultimate force or economic power. (Just consider their attitude to global warming and trade agreements.)

If America and to a certain degree Britain related to other countries with more respect then we may have been in a safer situation than we appear to be now.

Alan - I hope your off to the US to do business and not enjoyment, lol. Dont forget the other really enoyying phrase they have, 'god bless america' oh yea what for. I went to Cananda last year, how can it be so different (less gun crime than the uk for one thing). What a great place and great people. The only place i would go to by choice is probably New York because it seems to be very cosmopolitian. I am quite worried we seem to becoming more 'americanised' ('a dumbing down') in this country and i wish it would stop.

Another question but probably need months to answer it. What about Isreal?

Ald,
What is interesting to me is the number of cover ups of the British and American Administrations which are unfolding. Not only the "sexed" up dossier.

Also the attempts to suppress information from around the build up to war.

I also feel this country to be humiliated by being led by what the majority view as a liar. It doesnt say much for New Labour or the people of this country.

If you really believe the US and the UK are just in this action, 1st consider who supported saddam when they majoirty of attrocities were being committed the US and the UK, they turned a blind eye when he used gas in the war against iran and against the kurds. Sadam was armed to the teeth by the US and the UK in full knowledge of what this man was like just like Suharto in Indonesia and many other brutal dicatators. If you believe in justice what do you think should be done to politicians that backed this man. The West created Iraq, and have totally screwed that country. If you look at the US behaviour regarding Israel there is a total disregard for human rights, the US has vetoed countless actions against human rights abuses by their allies. Power is power and that is the reality, the US dont give a toss about the UN or human rights, and they are now responsible for the death of thousands when they suppoted Sadam and today for the complete mees which even some republicians are now questioning. Both and UK troops have murdered and committed torture against innocent Iraqis and BUsh and Blair should stand trial for their actions.

fred - oh as if the conservatives would have been any different, they have already given there full support. They probably would have wanted to be harder. Only the lib-dems were against the war.

The conservatives gave there full support based on the lies by Blair.

Fred,
I have no recollection of the UK or USA unleashing WMD's on their own people because they worshipped God in a slightly different way. Iraq did.
As i keep saying I have no truck with America. I am deflated by the way they act on many things but this thread was to address whether the war in Iraq was legal and the point is, it was. The un resolution gave clear sanction to invade because of a percieved threat to world security. Whether the threat was real or not is neither here nor there. The compliance was not there. For the security of the world, all other nuclear nations are inspected with alarming regularity. Should Iraq be exempted?
I also think our biggest problem, both domestically amd internationally is to give too much respect to things most people would find abhorrant, and we accept a lack of respect back.

Aldwick. Please read my posts. At what point did I say nobody told any lies? What I said was the reason we went to war was nothing to do with the lies of anyone.
What planet are you on, dear chap, a non-English speaking one?
Alan

Aldwikk - dream on. power and oil were behind the lies, as if they tories would have been any different. How many tory mps are on boards of companies?

Kivver, the conservatives have earnt a warm place in my heart.












Hell!


Davea3, I agree with the sentiments in your posting. Besides the actions which have and are taking place it is the B. Hypocrisy of some of the political leaders which angers me.


But I have this stupid belief that it doen't have to be like it is.

Dave,
The Uk may have been implicit in supplying arms to the man in the full knowledge of what he may do with them, but your argument runs along the lines of we made a mistake in the past and now should do nothing to put it right.
If I am right with the timings the weapons sales to him were sanctioned by a Tory government so it is a little rich to take a later Labour PM to task over it and say that if we did that then we shouldn't do this. Times, personalities and situations change.
Alan

Many actions are carried out in the name of religion, by many who understanding the religion is compliant with their own desires.

Beliefs rather than thought are Very Dangerous.

tens of thousands of people are dead today who would have been alive, for wmd that everyone knew didnt exsit, and so what if he did he was the us pupet in the iranina war and in the 1st gulf war rumsfeld told sadam they wouldnt object if he invaded kuwait dont confuse morality with the motives of corrupt politicians, if the us cares about human rights then they would not have vetoed actions in the un against israeli human rights abuses against the Palastinian people, the us also refused to sign up to the international criminal court, they supported sadam hussain, mobuto and many other scum bags and are the worlds biggest arms exporter.

Alan et al (ahem)

Interesting thread. Just spent the last 55 minutes composing a 1200 word rant on this very subject. Have shredded it. What a load of bumf.

It all boils down to a few things. It's like being back in the playground.

You are not playing my game. I made up the rules. If you don't like it, do not play - else tough. I am six foot six, have more friends who are weak followers and you are alone. When we have influenced enough of your neighbours and friends by giving them sweets paid for by your dinner money which we stole earlier, and flattering their egos, they will rise up with us to annihilate you (and thus not have the inconvenience of having to listen to your cries of foul) or we will subjugate you and you will be our bitch, cowering in the corner and grateful for any scraps thrown in your direction (for as long as you continue to please us).

Do not even think of crying to the headmaster. We pay his salary. If he sympathises with you, that is ok. If he tries to expel us, we will tell the School Governors that your son has been stealing from the tuck shop. No smoke without fire, eh?

Be assured although you may be in pain at the moment, when you leave school, all this will be behind you. In the adult world of international diplomacy, people just don't act like that. Do they?