Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Whether you like or loath Mrs T will depend in part on whether you are old enough to have experienced the awful 1970s. If you take 1973 as a base, which was when the trouble with militant unions was at its height and just before the three day week in 1974. That is 40 years ago. Anyone who was at least say 15 then and experienced all the union trouble and the battle to decide who runs the country, unions or government, would be at least 55 now and most would be 60 plus now. It would be interesting to see the poll figures from people with an informed opinion. The bulk of trouble and activism is, as usual, from people far too young to have any idea of what really went on.

Scargill had seen how it had been possible to bring down the weak Heath government by causing strikes. Thatcher knew she was going to get more of the same. She built up coal stocks and was ready for Scargill. Right on cue, Scargill called a strike with no vote allowed for his union members. Scargill was so sure of victory that he called the strike in summer when coal usage is very low. Some mineworkers wanted to keep working and flying pickets bullied them into giving up. There was a smaller more militant group within the union that instigated violence, culminating in the dropping of a concrete block on someone from a bridge, killing him. Union members asked regularly for a vote during the strick, but Scargill refused every time as he knew the members had wanted to settle the strike months earlier.

Don't forget that the minors' union was getting funds from the Soviet government at the time.

Haystack, I take it that reply was for Dil (post 23731). I find it a strange comment to make (post 23728) in light of the fact that you are taking the same public opinion to support your view (and mine also) of MT being the best PM.
I happen to believe that she came along at the right time for the country, notwithstanding there are a good many people with (perhaps rightly in their case) a huge sense of injustice and unfairness, just as there is now with the coalition and most certainly during Labour's wasteful years. Governments whatever their persuasion will not please everyone.
2517

Tony Blair said recently, "when you decide, you divide".

When Mrs T came along the country was already divided. The sides were the unions and the majority of the country who hated the unions.

Hays,

I think you are becoming more and more deluded. The country was more divided after the Maggie regime than any period over the last 40 years, that is up until this present government came into power.

Have a look how Maggie Thatcher paid for her triumphs,

The flogging off, of the “Family Silver”. (Stated by one of a previous Tory prime minister.)

The purloining of, the revenues of North Sea oil and Gas.

The flogging off, of local housing and public services.
(With the euphemisms, such as contracting out.)

Smashing up heavy industries and leaving the beginning of a false, weak and eventually failing economy.

Mass unemployment and break up of communities.

She came into power with the lucky break of North Sea and Nationalise Industries to plunder, and flogged to her mates at knock down prices and to support tax cuts to the same, who often spirited the proceeds abroad.

(Other countries used the income to restore their flagging industries.)

Again there was obvious need to change Strike Laws and Union regulations etc., (See previous posts), but more attempts improve relationships, between Management, Owners and Workers.

But, unfortunately both sides were as arrogant as each other. This type of arrogance and disregard of the “whole” of society is still being demonstrated by and you, along with Cameron and his cronies still seem to exhibit the same type of indifference and arrogance.

There was a need for pruning "heavy industry and mining etc." as they many of their parts were uneconomic, inefficient and in decline. However, this should not have been done by slashing and burning, in the manner relished by those who appear as primitive and of the same ilk as you.

After the necessary "siege" economy of the late forties, the processes of reforming and “recapitalising” of heavy industries and similar, should have been started earlier but carried out. There was “daft” resistance by some of the unions and their leadership, but responsible government might have got over these problems. They were not insurmountable, and many in the unions were open to reason.

Any government with foresight could have produced long term policies and been able to introduce the policies more slowly, allowing the necessary time for adaption, but showing respect for the various communities.

Thatcher was another political chancer, who ducked many of her responsibilities while in office, and instead of improving society squandered the country’s legacy, for short term political or personal advantage.

History may be a far harsher critic of her, than many think.
=====================

For me, and many others, Thatcher and her comrades appeared to show little respect for others and many do not think she deserves their respect.

The family, adherents, lackeys and friends could mourn and pay their respects to her in private, at their own expenses, not those of the general public.

Blair privatised more public services than Mrs T. She sold of a number of industries such as Gas, BT etc She wanted to roll back the tide of state control and nationalisation. Don't forget that Blair removed clause 4 from the Labour party constitution which specified that there was to be public ownership of industry.Labour MPs voted for it.

Just to change the subject for a minute, as I know we have some keen golfers on this thread, it would appear that we now have one set of rules in golf for Tiger Woods and another set of different rules for everyone else who plays the game. He should have been disqualified and since the authorities at Augusta don't have the integrity to do the right thing, he should now withdraw from the tournament.

doodlebug - Yep, if you or I did it in a medal round we would be disqualified. But (tongue in cheek) not to upset, got money on him.

They used rule 33 regarding conduct of committees to waive the disqualification caution

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion
A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

I always considered Blair a tory mole. Another one, more interested in his legacy.

Both stink for various reasons.

---------------

Have question marks over the method, reasons, choices, timing and the scale of denationalisation.

Often, before denationalisation argued against the "restrictive practices" of legislation regarding them

Also, the choices, ways or manner they were made.

---------------

(To long to try and explain.)

No problems with removal of Clause 4. (Outmoded, ideology, no longer needed.)

No problems with which a MP votes, as long it is according to conscience and not because they are whipped into obedience by party "bully boys".

I know it complicates government, but perhaps, it is time for parliament to grow up and have secret ballots rather than pandering to bullying in order to gain patronage.

Not sure, about latter statements.

Looking for a tortoise for my 12yr old great nephew - does anyone out there know anything about them and which would be the best one to get for our English Climate. Would appreciate any sensible comments!!!! Hey ho, probably the wrong thread for that haha!!!! Seriously I am researching the different types but am getting a little confused.

http://www.tortoise.org.uk/articles/6844/Buying-a-Tortoise

Strict regulations now carefully control the import of tortoises into Britain and this has helped to curb the horrendous trade in wild-caught tortoises that used to fill many high street stores. Most of these pathetic creatures died, either from starvation, disease, or injury having been stacked many layers deep.

Recently, however, there has been a new influx of tortoises from Eastern Europe following the expansion of the EU. Unscrupulous dealers are using loopholes in the current EU laws to flood the country with tortoises of dubious origin. So less responsible pet shops are once again selling wild caught tortoises, often terribly starved and diseased, due to the awful conditions in which they are held prior to shipping. Very many of these wild tortoises die shortly after they are bought.

To avoid paying a fortune for a sickly tortoise and furthering this dreadful trade we advise that you don't ever buy a tortoise from a pet shop or dealer.

There are plenty of responsible breeders who breed healthy captive bred stock in the UK. They can advise you on proper husbandry and care. Most will be only too willing to help out if you have any problems, sharing their years of experience in their chosen species.

The Tortoise Protection Group offer a list of responsible breeders. (We have no affiliation with the group other than being ordinary members). Please join the group while you are there and help protect endangered populations of wild tortoises from a terrible fate in the hands of greedy dealers.

Thank you so much Haystack. Much appreciated.

3m, I have some friends who have them (two) they take a great deal of understanding and care. Ie heaters etc. One thing I do know is make sure you get a certificate with the animal (I think it gives its origin etc) illegal to sell one without one and can lead to a big fine. A young one will out live me and you and it may need to be sold/passed on in time (A must for that certificate) . You can do plenty of reading on the net 3m. Good luck. :-))

There is a program on Channel 4 this evening at 7pm called Margaret: Death of a revolutionary.

The suggestion is that she was a working class revolutionary who thought that capitalism was in the interest of ordinary people.

......

And of course she was.

Thanks dc, I spent a lot of time explaing to him (great nephew) last evening about the care they need, he understood but as he and his brothers love pets, creatures, flowers and finding me sticks for the fire. I know he would or parents would make sure it would be okay - better than mine. When I was about 9 or 10, I thought mine was dead and had a little ceremony all on my own and buried it, I did not realise, too young to understand that they hibernated. I presume father dug it up and passed it on to someone more worthy of it than I. Told the children the story last evening. They laughed their little heads off. Laughed even more when I told them--- I had scratched in a piece of slate "In memory of --- dearly loved tortoise died which ever year ......" too old to remember now.

Innocence is Bliss, then we grow up, well some of us if we are lucky.

Channel 4 for me now. Enjoy.

They will be fine, they can do the homework before the purchase. Have a good evening 3m.

Britains got talent for me. :-))

Abadas - baby sitting granddaughter!

Well done skinny, sorry grandad. Abadas ? cbbc tv

AKA - Chinese water torture!