The 2005 general election is nearly upon us. Which way will you vote, and you reasons why. Here is a brief list of the potential contestants, please add your own.


More tax!
Less tax!
Dont know!
Death to all infidels!
Who gives a shit?

The great pretender.

hi moneyplus do you remenber poll tax?doyou remenber black wednesday? do you remenber who/ sold off the state silver to their friends some who were still MPS/////

Yes-poll tax was as they now admit a mistake and could have worked if they had gradually brought it in. also the current lib dem idea of local income tax based on the number of earners in the house sounds almost exactly the same to me just a different name! payment based on the number of people in a house does seem a fairer way of collecting money rather than based on the value of a property with maybe only one person in it--it's just very difficult to know how to bring it in without big trouble!!
Black Wednesday was the fault of the IMF--we should never have joined-b. europeans! Maggie never wanted to go in but Lawson, Major and Clarke shafted her by threatening to resign en masse if she held out against Europe any longer!! Now the tide is turning and the city big wigs are realising what a corrupt selfserving organisation it really is!!
Selling the silver?? hmm--as far as I can remember that was Harold Macmillan as a past PM who didn't approve of something and said it was like selling the family silver but don't know what it refers to. Now we've sold the gold as well!! not much left hey?

This is fun for me--bring it on!! I hope I'm not annoying you just teasing--as I said I'm too old to worry too much. cheers Bristle MP

Moneyplus.

Macmillan in context of the Maggies misgovernment did say selling of the "Family Silver" referring to selling off the previously nationalised industries at cut down prices to satisfy its own followers.

That government also abused the exploitation of the North Sea Reserves.

Rather than using these profits to improve the infrastructure of the country of the country that government plundered the finances to reward the rich and party or camp followers by Tax reductions to the already rich.

That period of government was partially responsible for the break down in social responsibility we are now suffering, imbuing the young a lack of moral responsibility and furthering the attitude and action self first and bugger your neighbour as long as you can get away with it. The actions could be illegal or socially dismissive as long as you didnt get exposed.

Well how come after all the time Foney has had cannot he have made one Jot of difference apart from making everything worse and landing us with another mountain of DEBT.
He promised utopia at the first and at the second said we need a bit more time, now I understand he meant more time to completely ---k it all up.

Fred--I tend to agree with you on that. trouble is the decline in political standards has continued apace and the same with society in general. I once ticked off a student on Paddington station who was aggressively abusing his poor Mother using every word a foul four letter one---he was so shocked he looked at me as if I was from another planet!! I feel as though I am sometimes!
No one is ashamed-no one resigns anymore only self counts! so who do we put in??--goodness knows why they want to get in it's a thankless task.
I think we should have a new party--the honourable party. William Hague, Ann Widdecombe, Charles Kennedy, George Galloway and yes Michael Howard!

Any other suggestions for my new party--oh I forgot Eric and Stockdog!

I have always thought of Tony as a Tory mole.

You're quick off the mark--how about you in the new honourable party?

ps This is much more fun than watching my stocks bathing in red!

bristlelad.

Refresh my memory for me,if you would. That nice mister Brown..........how
many tons of gold did he sell at the lowest price for years? And what price is that shiny stuff today?

The Euro.....that new kid on the block. How many billions of pounds did that
nice mister Brown spend in buying Euros at the entry price and what price are they now?

Ponder this fact. It is without question, one the agonies of life today....
juveniles creating mayhem in virtually every sphere of life in this country.
The worst of course within the confines of education. They KNOW they can get way with near murder and nothing can be done to stop them.
From accusations of assault to charges of sexual molestation, the teachers are powerless. In giving a pupil poor marks or suspending them from the class
invites attack by the parent. Teachers are ham-strung at every turn by PC
and Human Rights. Youngsters, still at school, are sexually promiscuous.
.......and now 'Daisy- Chaining'. Ye gods. What gives them a kick? Beating
up OAPs.
Every child at school today and those that have left within the last five
years have been taught within guidelines set by Tony Blair and continually
changing Education Ministers.
Universities are having to give remedial English classes to new entrants.
The Army are having to recruit overseas to build up the Infantry Regiments.
The Service Corps, Logistics, Engineers, Signals, REME etc are in a desperate
state for recruits. Industry? Have a guess.
AND WE'VE GOT THEM AGAIN, it appears.

Evening folks.


standber.

I would go along with your comments in general. However I think you must put it in context.

Whilst the rules are the same for all schools, they are applied in different degrees, depending on where they are/who runs them etc. Most of the out of control schools are in traditional loony labour inner city/town controlled areas. Mix in umpteen different base languages, and you have a recipe for disaster...how do you teach someone who cant speak the lingo?

My daughter is now at uni doing a Bsc, there are NO remedial anglais readers/writers on her course or as far as she knows (i have asked) in this uni. They wouldnt stand a chance. The culprits i suspect, are the new (ex poly's) uni's who appear to take all comers...anything to keep the numbers up and keep the excess 18+ y/o's off the dole.

All governments spout the speel about education, but I wonder if that is what they really want? I think they would be far happier with a complacent electorate of sheep who will do as they are told.

In the meantime, the marching morons continue to swell the ranks.


I fear for my daughters future.

Excellent speech from Michael Howard today--can only guess that those who don't like him dont really listen to what he says. I believe he means every word and deserves his chance as PM.

Howard says that he will always tell the truth.
Blair says that he has never lied.
Do they really think that we are that nae?

On the other hand, why are the voters so surprised that politicians tell lies?

It has always been like that!
They have to lie to get elected!

That is the system that they have created & (given the choice) they wouldnt have it any other way.
But of course, it shouldnt be their choice to decide on the rules of our political system. The rules should be set by a written constitution that can only be amended by the voters.

Corruption is the natural state of politics, it is normal human behaviour, get used to it!

That doesnt mean that we have to give up & assume that nothing can be done to put things right.

We just have to recognise the reality of human motivation & behaviour & design a constitution where TRUST IS NOT REQUIRED.

It is fundamentally wrong to trust a politician.

When human beings get a taste of power, their lust for power & wealth will always override their sense of right & wrong.
This happens even if they start out as well meaning people.

Like I said, politics has always been like that, it is normal human behaviour. We have to get used to it & act accordingly to design a constitution that takes this into account in order to put things right.
Not only should it take this into account but anticorruption laws should be the bedrock of the constitution.

It is not difficult to design a constitution where trust is not a requirement of the system.
The most important part is that intensive monitoring of politicians must be built into the constitution.
This is the only way to keep them in line.

We have a right to know what they are doing.


Democracy is easily corrupted & degraded by the lack of constitutional laws to prevent rich people buying influence.

The corrupters want people to give up on it & not bother to vote because it makes it easier for them to have their way.

Only if voters have access to information can politicians be forced to abide by very tight constitutional anticorruption laws.



A constitution & a bill of rights are essential.


A truly democratic constitution would insist on :-

1.
Proportional representation, so that a party that gets 1/3 of the votes cannot get 2/3 of the seats.

2.
It should be illegal in any way give money to a political party that has got seats. (He who pays the piper calls the tune.)
Those with seats should be funded by the taxpayer with the top 2 parties getting 10million per year & the others getting a proportion of 10million related to the number of votes that they got at the preceding election.
(This would put end to such things as Formula1/Tobbaco donations to parties.)

A party without seats should only be allowed to raise & spend funds equal to the smallest party with seats provided that it has got a candidate for every seat in the country & will have the amount reduced proportionately for every seat without a candidate.
(This prevents a party pretending that all of its candidates are in different parties just to get more money.)

3.
Political lobbying by organisations should be illegal.
The only lobbying allowed is to be by individuals & all conversations & other communications are recorded & published.
The ordinary individual has a right to anonymity when these are published but the politician involved does not.

4.
Voters should have to pay a fine if they do not vote.
(Just like they do in Australia.)
They should also be able to vote early at a special polling station in the week leading up to the election & elections should be held all weekend instead of 1 day. There should be mobile polling stations in supermarket car parks.



5.
There should be an extra box at the bottom of the ballot paper so that voters will be able to vote for NONE of the above candidates.


6.
Political advertising should be illegal.
At the moment, this only applies to TV adverts.
TV progs must be accurate about giving equal time to parties & rights to reply.


7.
Any small group of voters that have never committed any crime & never been involved in politics before should have the right to check up on what any politician is doing or has done & where our money goes.
No information should be kept from these voters provided that they agree not to disclose information that would allow a criminal to escape or be the direct cause of harm to an innocent person or provide a weapon to someone. All other information should be disclosed & published. Action should then be taken so that the rest of the information can be published without negative consequences.

Any group of voters should have the right to investigate a politician but individuals should be disqualified as investigators for acting maliciously or criminally.

(Politicians love secrets.)
Secrets should not be permitted, the only thing that should be allowed is a delay of public release of information because it would compromise a current operation but they should have to prove that in a closed court if a voter requests the information.
As soon as the operation is over, further delay should be illegal as specified by the constitution.


8.
Elections should happen on fixed date.
4.5 years would be appropriate so that elections could alternate between spring or autumn, just in case a particular time of year gave an advantage to the party in power.
Any politician that resigns before the fixed date should be banned from taking part for 10 years.
Politicians should not be allowed to decide the date of an election.

(At the moment, they can call an election any time within 5 years of the last election but they can change that law whenever they like because there is no constitution.)

9.
Parliament should legally have to elect the PM after every general election & in the middle of each 4.5 year term & the cabinet every year but be able to take an extra vote in between if they want to.


10.
Currently, there are many decisions that ministers can make without the approval of Parliament & without even telling them.
Even if they do know, there is nothing that MPs can do about them. Some of these decisions do have a time limit on them in which Parliament can take a vote on them BUT these are usually taken during the summer recess to prevent Parliament from having anything to do with them.
This should be illegal.
Parliament must be informed about ALL decisions & 50 MPs should be enough to force a vote on anything.

11.
It should be illegal for a politician to benefit from anything unless specifically permitted to do so by the constitution.

Politicians who break the rules of the House of Commons should go to jail. (The register of members interests is just a joke. Currently, they are just excluded for a couple of days.)

12.
The house of Lords should be replaced by a house of experts.
These should be qualified people.
2 seats allocated to represent each area of expertise all sciences, branches of medicine, the arts, business etc. Currently, it is overstaffed with lawyers but we would still need to allocate a few seats for them.

Anyone who has ever been a member of a political party or has publicly supported a political party in the preceding 20 years must be disqualified from the house of experts.

These experts must be nominated by 1,000 members of the public (NOT politicians) signing their nomination when there is a vacancy.
They can of course refuse the nomination but it must be illegal for them to campaign.

TV programs must be broadcast giving information about them but politicians must not be allowed to campaign for or against them.
Only members of the public will be allowed to campaign for or against them unless they have a direct connection with them.

The voters will then vote to approve them or not at the same time as the council elections, which take place once a year.

If there is more than 1 nomination for the same seat then voters must list their 1st choice, 2nd choice etc.

Once approved, they can stay in the house of experts for a maximum of 25 years after which they can never return.

The only power that the house of experts should have is to delay legislation by amending it. The maximum delay should be 18 months after which, they cannot reintroduce the same or remotely similar amendment. After that, if they still insist on their amendment then they can call a referendum on it. Otherwise, the commons gets its way.


They must subject to the same rules of public scrutiny & anticorruption as MPs.

=====================

To any politician who objects to any of this, I say, What are you trying to hide?

As far as constitutional laws are concerned, democracy is pretty easy to fix.

The real problem is; how do we get there from where we are now?
Those in control will try to prevent change.

It looks impossible, but on the other hand, go back 400 years (The divine right of kings etc.) & look at where we are now.
Such change looked even more impossible from back then.
BUT HERE WE ARE!
The right to vote did happen!

In the nineties, the impossible happened again. This time it was South Africa, its not perfect but it was a big step forward.



Obviously, democracy is not the answer to everything.

There should be a bill of rights stating the rights of the individual. The bill of rights should enshrine the principle that individuals or minorities cannot be oppressed or persecuted by the majority no matter what the majority votes for.

A bill of rights must prevent someone being disadvantaged just because other people dont like them.

How about voting to torture a TV presenter or voting about who to lock up in a concentration camp & send to the gas chambers?
It would be democratic but it wouldnt be right.
Minorities must be protected.

That is why a bill of rights is essential.

A bill of rights must guarantee freedom & human rights.
The freedom to do whatever you want to do as long as it does not affect anyone else without their consent. If it does affect someone then there have to be laws about it & those laws have to be decided by democracy.
The only exception to consent is freedom of speech but
incitement to violence is not an exception.

The bill of rights should contain the right to privacy except in cases of hypocrisy, corruption, other crime or danger to the public.
When the media reports on someone then there should be an equal right to reply in the same media.

=======================================

You are probably asking yourself how I ever had the time to to come up with all this boring stuff.

Many years ago, I was on a long coach journey & I forgot to take a book with me.

Some of you probably think that I should go on another one & not come back, especially if you are involved in politics.
If so, what are you trying to hide?
Or are you rich & have grown accustomed to buying influence?

Oh well only another few days of watching politicians play jump the toilet before we vote.

Well thought out apple-trouble is politicians only listen to us leading up to an election after that-forget it!

Excellent apple!

moneyplus,
Thanks for the compliment.

Im sorry I cant say the same about your adoration of Howard in message 260.

How many times have I got to tell you, You cant trust a politician.

Howard is typical of the sort of hypocrite that becomes a politician.
Just like all the others, he is very selective with his use of statistics when talking about asylum seekers.
He fails to mention the fact that when he was home secretary & there was a rapidly growing backlog of asylum cases, HE gave amnesty to over 14,500 asylum seekers just to reduce the backlog & make the figures look better.

I dont agree with either side on this issue, they are both using it to get the votes of bigots.

Howard was found guilty of acting illegally when he was home secretary BUT there was no penalty. He wasnt disqualified from office, no prison sentence, no fine for him, nothing!

He was interfering in the prison system, Im sure you remember the famous Paxman interview where he refused to answer a question about it no matter how many times he was asked.
My theory is that he didnt want to incriminate himself.


In 1995 when the House of Lords ruled he acted illegally over criminal compensation. Mr Howard said "I don't wish to comment on that, frankly it is not a criminal matter."

April 5 1995 the Law Lords ruled that Mr Howard (the Home Secretary) had acted illegally in using prerogative powers to replace the 1964 common law scheme for compensation with a tariff scheme which slashed the compensation paid to the worst-affected victims.

The tariff scheme resulted in significantly lower awards for victims of crime. Many victims who suffered the most serious injuries, including police officers and fire fighters, had compensation slashed to just a tenth of what it would have been under the previous scheme. (Has this been put right since? Of course not, they found a way around it with amendments to other legislation passing through.)

There were quite a few occasions when Howard was found guilty of acting illegally.


He is not alone, many Tory & Labour ministers have been found guilty of acting illegally but nothing ever happens to them.

Howard brought in a range of repressive laws reducing the right to freedom of assembly and freedom of speech in the 1994 Criminal Justice Act & Blunket carried on in the same way.


moneyplus, Why do you believe he means every word?
Please DON'T be like most other people & believe what you WANT to believe.
So take those blinkers off & see him for what he is.


They are not all the same but they are all bad.
It will be like this until we change the system.
The best we can do on Thursday is look for competence.


Not long to go now.
As we keep on watching them all play jump the toilet, maybe one of them will fall in.

Thanks brianboru,

but it's only a statement of the obvious.

Political expediency is the name of the games for all the parties.

Not one has a single bedrock issue that cannot be negotiated...none!

Once the election is out of the way, it will be business as usual. ie, sort out the preferential pay and pension rises for pols, tax the hell out of anyone actually earning a productive crust (a vanishing species) muddle on as normal trying not to step on any minorities toes, majorities are fair game though, as long as they are white/middle class/male/add your own discription.


What a wonderfull world.

oh dear apple --we have to have some poor sod in charge unfortunately. I just think Howard etc are more competent and less corrupt than a lot of others!! However looking at it both ways I even felt sorry for Tony Blair on ITV tonight.

hi moneyplus//oh that nice honest competent and uncorrupted mr howard the same howard who put the boot into john major who ran off with someones wife??true and blue well they were ALLdoing it in that tory party at time //hi apple I COULD NOT AGREE MORE WITH WHAT YOU SAY THAN IF I SAID IT MYSELF YOU PUT IT MUCH BETTER THAN I//THANKS