Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

The phrase "We will die, become martyrs" has no reference to the silly notion of virgins. Various religious faiths have the concept of martyrs. The Catholic faith probably has more martyrs than any other faith.

What about "The National Monument to the Jewish Martyrs of Belgium". There is also a fair bit of reference to martyrdom in Jewish texts over the years.

"They are highly emotional people" is somewhat of a generalisation, especially if you make any comparisons to the members of the extreme orthodox population in israel. I have yet to witness a more emotional bunch.

hay-they are highly emotional people who get very excitable very very quickly. I have witnessed this time and time again whilst working in Morocco.

martydom and the hevenly thoughts of awaiting virgins plays on the mind of those prepared to die for whatever cause. This is a fact.

I am sure that there is text on Jewish martyrdom. But the reference here is that those martyrs faced no choice. The muslim fundamentalists who participated in 9/11 had every choice. The suicide bombers had every choice. For every suicide bomber who completed his task-under orders from those who did not fancy dying- there was one who did not proceed through fear.

Interview with Jamal Elshayyal

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal has been released by Israeli authorities following Monday's deadly raid on the Mavi Marmara aid ship that was destined for Gaza.

Our producer, who reported from the ship as Israel launched the raid, was on the top deck when the ship was attacked.

Here, he tells his account of what happened.
http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/2010/06/201063123021327499.html

Israel faces child-abuse claims
News Middle East

Israel faces child-abuse claims



An international children's rights charity has said it has evidence that Palestinian children held in Israeli custody have been subjected to sexual abuse in an effort to extract confessions from them.

The Geneva-based Defence for Children International (DCI) has collected 100 sworn affadavits from Palestinian children who said they were mistreated by their Israeli captors.

Fourteen of the statements say they were sexually abused or threatened with sexual assault to pressure them into confessions.

Al Jazeera's correspondent in the West Bank, Nour Odeh, met one of the children, identified only as "N", who said he suffered sexual abuse at the hands of his interrogators.

Dismissive attitude

DCI officials say that when they complain to the Israeli military about the treatment of the children, their allegations are dismissed as untrue.

Now the organisation has submitted its evidence to the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture to try and increase pressure on Israel to stamp out the alleged abuse.

According to our correspondent, Israel has two sets of laws: one for its citizens and another for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

IN depth


Blog: Children behind Israeli bars
Amnesty report slams global abuses
The price of impunity
UN Gaza children's camp attacked


All Palestinians, minors and adults, are tried in military courts.

Children between the ages of 12 and 16 are tried in Israeli military courts as children.


From 16 years onwards, Palestinians are tried as adults.


Human-rights groups have criticised Israel's detention policy with regard to children, which denies them access to their families or lawyers during the detention process.

Palestinian children arrested by Israel are not permitted to see their lawyers until they are in court.

There are currently 340 Palestinian children in Israeli jails, mostly convicted of throwing stones.


An Israeli military order stipulates that stone throwing carries a maximum jail sentence of 20 years, and there is no appeals process for decisions by Israeli military courts.

Israeli reaction

The Israeli military, in a written response, rejected DCI's allegations, saying the detention of minors is consistent with international law.

It said all court hearings involving minors in the West Bank were conducted before a special military court which specialises in dealing with issues pertaining to minors.

"Allegations regarding violence in the course of questioning should be raised during the trial or in a formal complaint," the military said.

"Regarding the presence of a lawyer during questioning of a minor, the Youth Law does not require such a presence, even within the state of Israel."

Bana Shoughry-Badarne, head of the legal department at the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel, an Israeli human-rights group, says there is a huge issue of impunity in Israel with regard to complaints against the security services.

"Our latest report, from 2009, shows that from the 600 complaints that were submitted to Israel's attorney-general, all of them were dismissed," she told Al Jazeera from Jerusalem.

"There was not even one criminal investigation."
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053082239109343.html

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yuff
I have quite a few Arab friends and in particular Algerians. Almost all of them are very devout, but I would say that none of them believe in the virgin nonsense. My guess is that it is just a handful of Muslims that believe in that sort of rubbish and possibly not even them. It is similar propaganda that is put about concerning many other races and ethnic groups. These martyrdom video may go on about hoards of virgins, but it has no real bearing on anthing sensible. Neither the Koran nor the sayings of Muhammad have any references to such rewards for martyrdom. No one is going to be a suicide bomber for a few virgins. It is just a few mad clerics saying this.

The video report from Al Jazeera looks to be very credible. It seriously conflicts with Israel's version and indicates that live fire was from helicopters and neaby boatsa and at least one person was shot from above.

Haystack
The last incursion into Gaza killed huge numbers and devestated large numbers of dwellings.


that's what happens when Hamas deliberately use civilians as cover

just cowardice to risk their lives like that

that's gaza democracy for you

and most of these 'conflicting' reports are just outright lies

why are they lying

is that allowed in the Quran too ?

Camelot,

Do you think that you are "slightly" biased in your views of the world?

Do you?

There are plenty of independent reports on bad Israel behaviour in Gaza.

This is a conflict that Israel cannot 'win' with their current tactics. The world is gradually isolating Israel. The US doesn't condemn Israel outright because it is concerned about stability in the region. The US is about the only 'friend' they have and they are not a real friend. The Palestinians are not going to stop their struggle. Building on occupied land only makes the situation worse. Dismantling Arab houses in East Jerusalem is bound to casuse more trouble.

Hamas won't stop what they are doing. They are deliberately goading Israel into agressive action. Hamas now have Israel on a piece of string. Israel cannot defeat Hamas, the same way that the UK could not defeat the IRA. Negociations are the only way. It is no use Israel saying that stopping rocket attacks is a precondition to talks. Hamas regard building on occupied land plus a few other things such as the blockade as far more serious.

Camelot
Don't you think that Israel ever lies?

Around half the Norwegian people wanted to boycott the Israeli products or have already started to boycott them, results of an opinion poll made in Norway over the past couple of days showed.

Hebrew daily Yeidot Ahronot reported on Wednesday that the results, which were published in a local newspaper, displayed that 33.5% of those polled wanted to boycott Israeli products.

It noted that 9.5% were already boycotting Israeli products in the wake of Israel's brutal attack on the Freedom Flotilla bound to Gaza that left tens of solidarity activists killed or wounded other than robbing all relief material on board.

The paper noted that the Norwegian health minister Kristin Halvorsen, who is also the leader of the socialist party of Norway, on Tuesday urged the world community to suspend all arms trade with Israel as already pursued by Norway.

03/06/2010

The Irish ship named Rachel Corrie, which fell behind the Freedom Flotilla convoy, is ploughing ahead with its attempt to deliver aid to the Gaza Strip despite Mondays attack by the Israeli navy and due to arrive tomorrow or the day after.

The organizers said that Rachel Corrie, which was named after the American activist who was killed in 2003 by an Israeli military bulldozer, sailed from Malta on Monday.

Derek Graham, one of the crew members aboard the ship, told the Irish radio that there are 15 passengers on board the ship including a Nobel peace prize laureate.

He said that he and the others aboard the ship had a meeting after what happened on Monday morning and decided to continue their mission, noting that the ship is carrying medical appliances, school supplies and cement bags.

Meanwhile, the European campaign to end the siege announced that it was able to secure funding for three other aid ships after it received earlier funds for three ships of the new Freedom Flotilla convoy.

The campaign added that it managed within the past 24 hours through intensive worldwide contacts to obtain funds for six ships that will be among a huge fleet scheduled to sail for Gaza in the next few days.

Camelot
Have you hear of an organisation called "Breaking the Silence". It is is an organization of veteran Israeli soldiers (that have served since 2000) that collects testimonies of soldiers who served in the Occupied Territories. They cover the use of human shields as a normal prictice while walking around Gaza in 2009.

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/news_item_e.asp?id=30

Fifty-four testimonies of Israeli combat soldiers who participated in Operation Cast Lead reveal gaps between the reports given by the army following Januarys events; the needless destruction of houses; firing phosphorous in populated areas and an atmosphere that encouraged shooting anywhere.

You can download the report here.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/ENGLISH_oferet.pdf

you can swamp the thread with as many posts as you like

the fact remains you havent answered the question

and non-denial denials dont wash either

stop wriggling

Not sure what your question is. If it "why are they lying?", then what specific lying are you referring to.

You really outght to read the accounts from the Israeli soldiers. What they describe amouts to war crimes and crimes against humanity by Israel.

thank goodness to be on the plane this afternoon ..... it also gave me a chance to read The Times where there was proper balanced reporting and leader on this whole sad affair ..... it might do you all good to go and read it!!

Isaacs,

I suspect nobody in the real world is without bias, or prejudice, on any topic of discussion, but many try to recognise their own lack of objectivity, and try to be observational of such, when making a statement and try to recognise the difference between a statement, based on fact, and one based of belief.
I think,, that you , Camelot, Yuff and sometimes Fahel (sorry to criticise the latter) often dont seem to attempt to do so.


(I wont give opinion of G/MM. I will allow you to consider their postings for yourself.)

Personally, I try to be observational of my own prejudices and, in generally, try to be careful when giving an opinion and try to differentiate between emotional affect and true reality.

I dont think I have any particular bias, in the Middle East conflict, other than anger at the futility of the action by some, and despair at the stupidity being shown by of all sides.

(My wifes family was torn apart by a civil war, which didnt advance their families or their country one little bit, but separated brothers and friends for forty years. (Their values were similar, but werepainted a different colour, by the flags they chose.)