Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

Yes, but dave would like it.

Nicked from across the road:



SHARED POST: For the still unsure amongst us.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

Good post Max.

P2737

I suggest the UK resigns from the UN as well.

We haven't voted for the "controllers" of that body either.

-=-===

Max.

Have a look at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union and government representation.

Are you asking for referendums for the passage of "bills, regulation, statutes" in the UK? Or should all the international bodies (WTO etc.) have their representatives elected by the public vote before they are allowed to represent the UK?

You could have a referendum every week.

The so called Democracy arguments are mostly fallacious.

Get real.

bet Fred won't highlight any article from today's guardian ......

In a traumatised Netherlands, faith in the EU is plummeting

and

Sterling swings as polls suggest UK heading for EU exit

put the way we would all think of it .....

£ will currently buy € 1.283
a year ago it was about € 1.41

Yes and i remember the exchange rate a few years ago, when it was
down to around the 1.13 euro area...

"WE"?

Do you mean wee, wee, wee?

I remember that too granny, the elixir of life they was calling it then, helps exports etc.

Funny how things change.


Talking of change:

The stay group is fooked, all the polls are turning against, which is some doing seeing as they only ask the Highgate hooligans what they think, forget the bloke in the street.

Here is a vote of confidence for the "exiters".

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-property-idUKKCN0YR0EG?feedType=nl&feedName=ukmorningdigest&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=UK%20Morning%20Digest%202016-06-07&utm_term=UK%20Morning%20Digest


Investors add Brexit clauses to British property deals before EU vote
BY ANA NICOLACI DA COSTA AND ESHA VAISH



Commercial property investors are writing clauses into contracts giving buyers the right to walk away from real estate deals if Britain votes to leave the European Union this month, as a way to unfreeze a sector stalled by uncertainty over Brexit.

Transactions in commercial property fell by 40 percent in the first quarter, according to the Bank of England, with many buyers and sellers waiting to see the outcome of the June 23 referendum in case an exit vote hurts property prices.

In one example from a commercial transaction seen by Reuters, a clause sets a deadline after the vote when the buyer would be permitted to terminate the contract if the referendum results in a decision to leave.

Sellers too are taking legal precautions, seeking language in contracts to ensure that Brexit will not be considered a "material adverse change" that would annul a deal.

Paul Firth, head of real estate at law firm Irwin Mitchell LLP, said a significant percent of the firm's "bigger investment deals" with values ranging from 10 to 80 million pounds either included Brexit clauses, or purchasers had sought to negotiate that they be included.

He said the use of such clauses had increased in recent weeks as the referendum date draws closer.

"(Investors) fear that the value and return on investment properties may decline and that it may not be as good an investment if Britain withdraws from the EU," he said.

Since commercial real estate deals are usually confidential, it was not possible to determine precisely how common such clauses are.

However, half of the 24 law firms, brokerages and commercial property firms Reuters spoke to said they had used Brexit clauses, brokered a deal with such a clause or had requests to include them in at least one deal. Some of the others said they had seen them.

Prime Minister David Cameron and other politicians supporting the campaign to stay in the EU say a vote to leave would damage the economy and cause property prices to fall. Those campaigning to exit say any such threat is overblown and Britain can prosper outside the EU.

But whether overblown or not, it is a risk some buyers seem unwilling to take.

Guarantees are being offered not only for commercial property but also for homes. An invitation to a May 25 launch of some floors of Two Fifty One, a 41-storey luxury apartment tower going up in south London's gentrifying Elephant and Castle district, offered buyers a "money back Brexit guarantee pledge".

Buyers attending the launch would not have to exchange contracts until July 6 and could withdraw their offer and get their deposits back if they were unhappy with the outcome of the vote, said Martin Lent, chief executive of SCM, the development manager for the project by residential developer Oakmayne.

In commercial property, Brexit clauses are more common in higher value deals where the risks are greater, said Andrew Friend, director of a UK property fund at Henderson, one of Europe's largest investment managers.

Interesting C+P from II.

"If there is a vote to leave there will be thousands of beaurocrats, and many consultants tied up for years negotiating terms of the divorce - we may not like to eurocrats we are paying for, but this would be a real gravy train for many civil servants."

It should take about 4years to disentangle, which means about 10years in practice.

he don't half gibber on that one ........ clearly nothing else to keep him occupied and perhaps his family won't speak to him either

There is no shortage of 'crats, there are thousands of them filling in €U forms, simply divert them onto something usefull.

the fact that it takes forever and a day for the eurocrats to knock together even a sensible trade deal, shows how badly in need of radical reform the whole structure is ...... and it will get ever worse as membership grows almost like japanese knotweed

Accepted that reform is needed, as with all dynamically developing organisation.

Doesn't mean one should stamp one's feet like petulant children who are not getting all their own way and demonstrate by throwing their toys out of the pram.

In any organisation, there has to be "give and take" for it to be successful, negotiate it.

Also, I can see there may be a need for an EU "Defence Force" especially with America seeming to wish to withdraw from being the World's Policeman.

I would prefer a "force" representing an entity I belong to, than residing on the outside of such a entity.

Whether or for how long NATO will exist, I don't know.

Neither do I know whether Putin has thoughts of expanding his regime.

PS.

What "democratic" vote do we have on the running and rules of NATO. Is the UK in charge of the "actions" of "Nato"?

nothing wrong with voting in either direction
it's a personal viewpoint ....... personal being a bit too much emphasised by some posters