Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

he don't half gibber on that one ........ clearly nothing else to keep him occupied and perhaps his family won't speak to him either

There is no shortage of 'crats, there are thousands of them filling in €U forms, simply divert them onto something usefull.

the fact that it takes forever and a day for the eurocrats to knock together even a sensible trade deal, shows how badly in need of radical reform the whole structure is ...... and it will get ever worse as membership grows almost like japanese knotweed

Accepted that reform is needed, as with all dynamically developing organisation.

Doesn't mean one should stamp one's feet like petulant children who are not getting all their own way and demonstrate by throwing their toys out of the pram.

In any organisation, there has to be "give and take" for it to be successful, negotiate it.

Also, I can see there may be a need for an EU "Defence Force" especially with America seeming to wish to withdraw from being the World's Policeman.

I would prefer a "force" representing an entity I belong to, than residing on the outside of such a entity.

Whether or for how long NATO will exist, I don't know.

Neither do I know whether Putin has thoughts of expanding his regime.

PS.

What "democratic" vote do we have on the running and rules of NATO. Is the UK in charge of the "actions" of "Nato"?

nothing wrong with voting in either direction
it's a personal viewpoint ....... personal being a bit too much emphasised by some posters

Read back through some of the rubbish you have posted.

This is supposed to make sense.


http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jun/07/france-wrong-imprison-ghanian-woman-enter-britain-illegaly-eu-court-rules

Instead of France just locking the woman up she should have been returned
to her country of origin, but its easier for France and the EU who
have a no return policy, in general just to lock/contain them just like in the
French manner of excepting the camps on the French coasts,
when the French authorities should be processing them and if they have
no right to be there, returned to their own countries...

The remain campaign MPs outnumber the leave group by 3 to 1. Firstly, as a group they may vote against a leave result in the referendum. Secondly, if we do leave then only parliament has the power to accept any trade agreements that may be negotiated.

There could be several trade agreements on offer, such as Norway's, Canada's, Switzerland's, Iceland's or WTO rules. Parliament will choose the one that the majority of MPs want. That means the MPs who are 3 to 1 in favour of the EU. It is very likely that they will choose a Norway type deal which will allow free movement of people just as we have now. It won't matter how tough the negotiators are or what deal they recommend. The pro EU MPs will decide.

In these justices dept, ie: Home office etc and the French equivalent ,
they're supposed to be intelligent people and should be able to see
where the problems could arise, but also done the right thing at the
begining.

Many Remain MPs 'expect' that the likely economic shock following a Brexit vote would increase pressure on any post-referendum Conservative government to seek access to the single market outside the EU.
Labour MP Stephen Kinnock told the BBC "If the British people voted to leave the EU that's one thing. "But can we really say that they voted for the devastation and destruction of the entire exporting sector of our economy? I don't think you can necessarily say that there's a democratic mandate for that."
Kinnock . That family again. Mam and dad go into the Lords hand in hand each day, pass Go and collect 600 quid to supplement their various pensions, then meet up with the kids who are also living off the exchequer, for a free lunch. Nice. Champagne socialists.

Reality is that the Tories still have a overall majority and must respect the referendum in deed and spirit. If MPs start to play silly buggers the out MPs can bring the government to its knees in quick time and force another general election.

It is not a question of what the Tories want. Three quarters of ALL MPs are remain supporters. That is about 490 MPs. It is those that will choose the trade deal. There is a good chance that it will be a deal that allows free movement of people. It won't do any good bringing down the government as any new government would still be 3 to 1 for remain, support the EU and want fee movement.

You do talk rubbish at times Hays. The government has to show a unified face and allow tough and sincere trade negotiations to take place after Brexit. If it is seen to be poor losers, undermining negotiations and siding with tossers like Kinnock, all hell will break loose.

I don't think so. There will be a team of negotiators and the talks will last quite a time, probably several years. They will come up with a set of choices of possible trade deals and they can only be cut down to one and ratified by our parliament. At that point the MPs will choose the one they like. That is the MPs who are three quarters in favour of the EU and don't mind freedom of movement. Which trade agreement will they pick?

Cameron has said that the referendum is more important than losing an election. I think that the MPs will choose a trade deal that has freedom of movement as that will give us the closest to the deal we currently have. It doesn't matter who is the Prime Minister. Even if it is Boris or a pro Brexit PM, there will still be 3 to 1 majority of pro EU MPs.

OK, you don't think so. We still have a parliamentary system where MPs vote according to party policy. Those that go against the whip suffer the consequences. Should the Government actively undermine the spirit of the referendum, it will also suffer the consequences. The EU is hardly worth losing power for.

The Labour, Libs, SNP, Green and other whips will be in favour of a deal with freedom of movement. That only leaves the Conservatives. A large number of Conservatives are in favour of the EU. Their majority is so small that a dozen voting for a freedom of movement type deal will do it. There are plenty of Conservative MPs that are not frightened by the whip.

So, your position is, the will of the people (referendum) will be ignored whatever the vote.

Is that Dave's ace in the hole? If so, it's a gift to UKIP, and all the parties can kiss goodbye to any support them may have.

It won't be the will of the people ignored. We would out of the EU. The trade deal options would be up to parliament to choose. You surely can't imagine that the negotiating team will decide. They have no authority apart to see what deals they can make. I am sure they will have a selection of deals similar to the existing deals now or even better. They may recommend one specific deal, but Parliament will decide. You are right in that some of the public won't like it. However, the iN and OUT are pretty evenly split and some of the Brexiters don't mind freedom of movement. For instance I want out and it has nothing to do with immigration. That is also the view of the Brexit Labour MPs.

Post Brexit is going to be a very confusing time. There will be plenty of people waning a similar deal to what we have now even a the cost of freedom of movement. Leaving the EU is not necessarily going to be the answer to immigration. It doesn't matter what UKIP say as the referendum has been done.

Even if the trade deal allows more control over immigration, it is not set in stone. A future Labour government is free to give away the immigration controls in exchange for a better trade deal and they probably would bearing in mind that they like freedom of movement.

Immigration is but one part of the story.

I want out of the trading agreement that sees the €U negotiate world wide trading agreements on our behalf...it's a disaster.

Also, what about fishing grounds, it would be good to have control over this as well.