I am afraid TFC and myself rather highjacked the CHP thread on this subject, so have started a proper one.

Will cut and paste as necessary from CHP, where our opposing stances are self-apparent

Truly scholarly postings from Alan6 and G/F, Spitfire and Aldwick . . All based on cold hard facts and their OWN personnel expieriences ; and as such " straight from the horses mouth " . NOT mere theorizing !! ...Heres a little gem for you all . Recently a Lancashire town called Blackburn was ordered by Blairs central govt to house 400 Armenians .The local coucil and city planners were utterly horrrified as housing units, healthcare ,and adequate ammenities simply did not exist to serve their needs .. BUT !!!! The most vociferous and violent opposition to the Armenians came from uppity racist Pakistani residents/immigrants who claimed this area was there " patch " to do as they so wished ...EG Sell drugges , stimulate prostitution and impose their idiosyncracies on the indigineous population . ln addition they weakly claimed their women folk were not safe from Armenian men !! Touche' A tad ironic considering this tiny island has no room for such types, , and the manner in which they percieved the influx of Armenians is much the same as we view them !!! Have they no shame ???...They have some nerve . Their effing " patch " indeed ..Their "patch" is usually inntermitent soujourns in Armly gaol in LEEDS and with good reason , .They are a potential "time bomb" and the clock is ticking . ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................lncidentally Cynic this is 2007 and not the post war 1950's when the UK was economically on its knees, manpower was short ,and the govt was too busy paying back the usa for war debt from the Marshall plan to bother itself with the future ramifications of mass immigration . ....................................Driver ....The Left are finished,/ And anyway you in the UK havent even got a left of centre party ... Thankfully. Even liberal Holland has lurched to th`e right after a zealot from the middle east murdered a prominent journalist . .Even countries like the Ukraine , Poland , Belarus, Latvia.Lithuania , Slovakia,The Czech republic, and a host of Eastern Europeons were glad to thow off the shackles of the Left ..........Orwel put that leftish hoary fable to bed ............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ ..

TFC .... would be interested to hear your (brief!) views on my post 26 which could equally apply to France

Finally the police cannot control many "no go" areas within the UK . So called "ZERO" tolerance" areas to boot . lmmigrants merely scoff and laugh at their impotence ......But the army could ably control our streets without a problem Bring them into the equation and u shall see a change overnight ,,,,

now try a sensible comment please!

Cynic , quit while your behind, your views have been blown out of the water.

No cynic. The population of the UK has not been multicultural for 1000 years.
Not a single mass migration, ever, has been of more than 1% of the indiginous population, until the 1950's.
Saxons, Romans, Normans, Jews, Moors, Poles, free French between them add up to less than 5%! Hardly multi-cultural.
Alien?? Not based on creed or colour or religion or how long they have inhabited a particular patch of earth. However by refusing to fit in with the accepted ways of the majority of the community, they alienate themselves. We all do. By how we dress, behave and live. By wearing hoodies, berber, gay pride T-shirts, burkhas, football kits or skullcaps we choose to alienate ourselves from mainstream society by making a statement of our differences. Choosing the group to which we belong.
this is totally acceptable and should be no cause for comment from anyone. Up until the point where society is forced into making changes, against the wishes of the majority, to allow for these groups.
I am opposed to racism, very strongly, but I am opposed equally strongly to positive discrimination, the brainchild of the liberal, educated elite. All discrimination is negative for someone.
There are about 168 countries of the world and there ways are all different. Their values and aspirations are never the same. Please find one that suits your lifestyle, and if that is the UK, then live here with my open armed invite and I will defend your right to do so with my last breath. If however, your intention is to benefit from our heritage while trying to change our cultural values then make your decision. Which do you value more. The enormous benefits of the UK citizenship or the doctrines of your own race / religion. Where these clash either moderate your values to those of the UK or give up the benefits of being here to satisfy your moral soul and move to a country who shares your ideals.
I do not consider that unreasonable and I do not intend it to sound like I am advocating a mass exodus of Dewsbury, Nottingham and leicester to Islamabad, or Golders Green and Alwoodly to Israel, or Birmingham to Jamaica. I am merely asking everyone of every colour to either improve the place or at least leave it as you find it, for the next generation.
Alan

Slightly off topic, but a bit of humour

Very good post, Allan.

Cynic lt does not apply to France iin any shape or form . Only 3 cities --Paris, Lyons and Marseille have immigration worthy of note .l could drive from Bordeaux to Rennes to La Rochelle and onto Brest and not set eyes on immigrants .....................Good huh ?

And one for religion as well

d'accord Alan .......once again an excellent posting . ,,,Dentist for me now ,,,,,,,,,shit it would be my luck to have a blackie who reads this very thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and payback lol,,lol Only teasing ,,,,,,,a'bientot @+ J ...

Cynic re to your post 24.......

you said....

"I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still."ENDS

You suggest that communities evolve over time and yes I couldnt agree more with you here on this point. The once local baker now lives in Crete I believe he as a boat for hire business, the once local butcher runs a bar in Benidorm and the once local bookie also runs a bar but its in Fuingerola.

Im left with little or no choice as I wish to stay put. This is hapenning more and more by the day, the indiginous population leaving and getting the 'hell out' and the immigrants moving in.

Were told house prices are going up all over the country, the truth is thats not correct. My house recently valued is worth just about what its worth was back in 1994. I dont benefit like some areas of the country and this is where I believe you are off track with your side of the debate.

It depends on where you live as to wether, immigration as benefited this country.

Goldgfinger i like you live in W.Yorks WF. and share an empathy in many of your views. Born in the very early sixties i've seen this area change beyond recognition, sadly for the worse in my view . Whils't not racist or bigoted i believe this goverment has let us down and i am opened minded on my vote in the next local elections including the BNP.

Yep BD, you actually know where Im coming from rather than the politicians or 'do gooders' who have no practical day to day experience of the problems facing some of our inner cities.

On a lighter note GF. if, when i hit the jackpot with KMR. i'm out of this shithole!.

We could start a Yorkshire club on here.
3 members already, of similar minded views!!
Any more takers???
Alan ;-)

have not gone into hiding or even been forcefully repatriated and some of you would seem to wish ...... have been having a quiet lunch with a good pal of mine (soul* - he lives in Canford Cliffs, so a close neighbour of yours).

will park the car and then respond ....... by and large, this has been a sensibly if quite fiercely debated thread ..... thank you all, for it could have become stupidly abusive.

To illustrate the positive side of immigration.Since 1989 in excess of 15,,000 English familys have settled in the French provinces of Bretagne, Poitou and Anjou . And why ? Because all 3 regions suffered from depopulation due to the native French moving to the cities and abroad ( Comme moi -pour l'argent )........Most simply love it as property is comparitevely cheap ,they , and more importantly , their children are safe at ALL times .lt is not uncommon to see kids strolling home from music lessons at ten at night in the dark ..CHILDREN ARE SAFE !!! ...When you ask these English if they would ever return to the UK they look at you as if you are demented .They learn the language and positively thrive ...Unlike the streets of the UK where even well heeled areas suffer at the hands of immigrants who see generousity and decency as a weakness and utterly exploit it . As for inner cities they are responsible for the majority of bestial crime such as rape and aww the mind boggles ..l suggest we give them ONE chance. But once they commit a indictable offence they are gone on the first flight to an unhabited island where they can all commit as many offences to their hearts delight,,,,,,And thats being both charitable and kind....@+ J PS No fillings or need for any treatment at dentist !! . As always ...! ........................................

ALAN - do you expect, or is it even reasonable to expect a new immigrant to assimilate in their entirety the mores of his chosen destination from Day 1? ..... almost a rhetorical question.

my own view , as stated earlier, is that open-door immigration is a recipe for disaster as at the very least there will be "indigestion" as has clearly happened in some locations ...... similarly, positive discrimination and other PC dictats are arguably as destructive as the "evils" they are meant to cure.

i like what would appear to be the Australian system of allowing immigrant entry based on a point system.

however, to make the sweepng statement that swathes to all immigrants come to UK purely to benefit from the NHS ands similar is a nonsense ..... indeed there are an awful lot of so-called indigenous residents who play (abuse) the system for all it's worth.

and so far, not even Alan has answered the question I asked in post 26 ..... "are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Chinese, Asians, WIs, Jews etc still deemed to be "aliens"? ...... if the answer is "of course not", then i would posit that the 1st generation did not "fit in" from Day 1 either, so should they never have been allowed into the country?

Personally Cynic i couldnt give a monkeys if they are 27th generation. They are ALL the same to me.ln saying that i dont include either Chinese or Jews among your list of undesireables . For the most part they are hard working industrious peoples who keep troubles " in house" without posing a threat to the community . lncidentally all Chinese are triad ; but they dont extort the indigenous population as do blackies and Pakistanis ...As much as he maybe currently maligned -.....History will prove Enoch Powell right ........................................................................