This board has been a little to quiet for while.

Is it time that Bush and Blair who is a close friend and confidant of Bush were tried for War Crimes?

Do you think the use by the American Administrations of renditions are War Crimes and committed with full knowledge of American and British leaders ie. Blair and Bush and they are ultimately responsible?

Also in the aftermath of the illegal invasion of Iraq are should their action seen to be as the provocation for the rising toll of British, American and Iraqi deaths.

As a result of the military intervention in Iraq do you think you are safer in Britain to-day?

Do you think one should expect government leaders and ministers who have been responsible for massive foreseeable casualties should visit the hospitals to meet the casualties they have produced directly or indirectly by their actions?

Moral Highground, America's Treatment and Torturing of prisoners. Mass killing of civilians, depleted nuclear material in weaponary, Phosphorus shells, attempting binding contracts for oil and reconstrution in IRAQ on a puppet goverment.
Manipulation of UN by cohersion and economic threats. Invasion or equivalent of multiple countries over the last 40 years. Its avoindance of responsibility in acting to curb CO2 emissions etc . Unfair or unhelpful agricultural policies. AND SO ON.

What MORAL HIGH GROUND.

I'm sorry, I thought we were discussing the role of Britain or the wider world, not the USA take on world affairs.
If however we wish to simply list a diatribe of world events from the perspective of their value to humanity, then we can start with Lockerbie, the twin towers, Iranian embassy seige, Human shields, London bombings, Burning of embassies, suicide bombings by palestinians, torturing and massacre of political dissidents, Bali bombings, Indonesian bombings, madrid railway bombings, shoe bombings, the treatment of women throughout the arab world, Kurdish gasings, beheadings, and on and on and on.........................
If we seek a balance sheet approach to who is whiter than white, the answer is nobody. If we look to see who is the least grubby, then I think we can claim the moral high ground, even if the high ground is quite low!!
BTW, depleted Uranium in weaponry is used in the main for weaponry of a defesive nature, such as "Goalkeeper". This does not make its use right, but it is rarely used in weapons of aggression.
The point remains. Allowing Saddam to continue on his chosen path, and by default, allowing Iran to continue unabated on their declared path would benefit the world how?
The government in Iraq was elected by vote, overseen by the UN. The vote was less than perfect, as one would expect in the circumstances, but how is this a puppet government.
Alan

I see Cheney's shot somebody. Maybe he thought he was in Iraq and was getting excited. I'd understand it if he'd shot himself in the foot.

I agree with blinger about the BBC's obsession with Islam. It's alright for them to have blatant anti-semitism and anti-western stuff in the mid- east but we always have to be whiter than white. If the justification is that we should endure this double standard because we are democracies and should take the moral high ground then this is insulting in a different way because it reveals we don't view them as equals.

While I'm on my hobby horse, I'm a little concerned about some of the motives of right wing newspapers in Britain to get at Blair. I saw a journalist from the Mail say a few years ago that the real reason behind constantly getting at Blair was that it would be easier to win an electon against Brown if he was in charge. I'm a bit concerned that some papers are going to start quite a divisive Scottish, English policy if/when Brown becomes PM. The only people this will benefit will be the Conservatives and the SNP, which is fine if you're the Telegraph, Sun, Mail etc. But the implication will be that a Scottish PM can't govern Britain and it'll leave Scotland questioning it's position in Britain as unequal partners. I have no doubt that in Conservative think tanks they will be weighing up the odds of "letting Scotland go". I know most people in Britain live in harmony happily with each other but if Britain was minus Scotland the Conservatives would always be guaranteed power or at least coalition power in Westminister, I'm sure this has crossed their minds. In the past the oil was too important to give up but now some tories may be tempted to "let Scotland go" after having been out of power for a longer period than expected.

I think an Iranian war will be coming soon

Apparantly Cheney shot Bush through the head, narrowly missing his brain by about 6 feet.
;-)

or sequel to Iraq Gulf war

Whats your take on it though, hyle?
All views welcome. One of the few threads where you are unlikely to be derided for having a different perspective on things.
Alan

When the Army guys who gave the teenagers a kicking (2 years back?) are brought to trial- and I bet 100% they will be found guilty-can we please forget Asia Minor for a week or so and have the media, government, judiciary, loony-left etc., give the same prominence to the UK muggings, happy slappings etc.,then build some more prisons, and make our streets as safe as they once were.
So it`s risk death or wounding for your country , break the law and have a 99% chance of being gaoled, against--- staying at home dealing drugs, drawing dole , benefits etc., beating people up for kicks, and having (I think the fig. is correct) a 7% chance of being caught- oh and if caught a severe 100 hours of cleaning church window,

mad!!!!

I don't think the USA has any option but to disable Iran by one method or another. Their anti Western influence is spreading throughout the ME and especially within Iraq and Syria.

Some Arabs are of the opinion is that the USA will take out the oilfields close to the Iraq border which comprise 90% of Irans output and which would be tactically possible..

After viewing this site http://www.jihadunspun.com/home.php I think I have to accept the fact that we are already at war!

Wpouldn`t it be easier to negate the truce between Iran and Iraq and let the Iraq Army loose on them, seems easier to me.

"Wpouldn`t it be easier to negate the truce between Iran and Iraq and let the Iraq Army loose on them, seems easier to me. "

A large part of Iraq's forces are already under Iranian influence!

6. Not defending Muslims, or any other group, but I don't think it is reasonable to or long term advantage to excuse abusive behaviour on historic actions. I think if there is reasonable, moderated and even justice for conflicting parties there is more likely eventually to be harmony. That time is a long way away, but is feasible.

That is one reason why I wish for a strong UN, but here again the rules and regulations have to be modified to be more equitable.


America has since pre-Regan days manipulated or ignored the UN and then when their actions have led to chaos asked for their help to bail them out.

America has paid 90% of the UN fees, much of the cash has gone into corrupt pockets, African mainly-no wonder the US is hacked off with them.

Saintserf: Re your post 321 about the difficulty of having a Scottish PM -- you've already got one. Tony Blair was born in Edinburgh, brought up in Co. Durham, but went to that most prestigious of Scottish public schools, Fettes (like blinger, q.v.!!).

It's simply that his accent is very neutral.

"I don't think it is reasonable to or long term advantage to excuse abusive behaviour on historic actions. I think if there is reasonable, moderated and even justice for conflicting parties there is more likely eventually to be harmony"

Publication of the two year old video by the NoW yesterday has caused problems already in Kandahar where the local radio is claiming that the videos were shot in Afghanistan. There is a fair chance that Western lives will be lost as a result!
Would it not have been better for the evidence to have been handed quietly to the MoD and publication be withheld providing those involved were suitably punished?

There has been an arrest already for the video.
Can someone remind me how long it was before the perpertrators of the torture of captured allied forces in Iraq were arrested?
Al-Jazeera and other TV stations across the Middle East have been showing these videos amidst outrage at the cruel treatment. Presumably they condemned with the same venom the beheading videos they showed so often.
These neatly outline the very different values held by the different cultures and why I am so uncomfortable with the thought of Iran with nuclear capabilities and Iraq with Saddam still in power.
Alan

Latest reports suggest that the video we have seen is the final bit of a video in the possession of the BBC which shows the compound under mortar attack, and the accused soldiers rushing out to detain those responsible, before rushing back in again with the youths on the video.
Not trying to justify, but as I said earlier, there may be mitigating circumstances. At any rate, it seems not to be the random violence, in the name of thuggery, suggested by the media.
Alan

Actually I think that Blair has a dreadful Co.Durham accent.
and

brianboru- exactly the BBC which hadn`t the balls to show the cartoons, beyond a fleeting moment, is quite happy to risk the lives of both our troops and other Westeners.The BBC needs cleaning out from top to bottom, perhaps the head of Fox news would do the job, the words ` loyalty to ones country` don`t feature in their contract of employment, but there again the majority of them aren`t from our country, and there lies the problem.
The BBC Govorner for the `English` regions is an Indian born bloke,now one has to be careful, racism is eveywhere, but let me say this,if I applied for the post of Regional Head of all the various bits of Radio &TV India I would not be surprised to receive the reply -"Fcuk off, what would you an English born bloke know of our culture, religions, accents, dialects etc", but there again I wouldn`t have the audacity to apply.
These people are in power at the beeb for 10 year contracts.

MAD!!!!

Bling - "When the Army guys who gave the teenagers a kicking (2 years back?) are brought to trial- and I bet 100% they will be found guilty-can we please forget Asia Minor for a week or so and have the media, government, judiciary, loony-left etc., give the same prominence to the UK muggings, happy slappings etc.,then build some more prisons, and make our streets as safe as they once were." Excellent Point.... However prison isn't the answer, I'd like to see National Service brought back but as part-punishment with existing programmes. It may well yet prove to be the force to break some criminals ways.

Good to see US is bombing Iraq again.