I am afraid TFC and myself rather highjacked the CHP thread on this subject, so have started a proper one.

Will cut and paste as necessary from CHP, where our opposing stances are self-apparent

Slightly off topic, but a bit of humour

Very good post, Allan.

Cynic lt does not apply to France iin any shape or form . Only 3 cities --Paris, Lyons and Marseille have immigration worthy of note .l could drive from Bordeaux to Rennes to La Rochelle and onto Brest and not set eyes on immigrants .....................Good huh ?

And one for religion as well

d'accord Alan .......once again an excellent posting . ,,,Dentist for me now ,,,,,,,,,shit it would be my luck to have a blackie who reads this very thread,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and payback lol,,lol Only teasing ,,,,,,,a'bientot @+ J ...

Cynic re to your post 24.......

you said....

"I say - Sorry, but that is rubbish!
If you are saying that your local shops have changed due to an influx of new cultures etc, and the demand that brings in its wake, then it is of course true ..... but so what? ..... towns, villages and the whole countryside have never lived and can never live in a time-warp, any more than a business can stand still."ENDS

You suggest that communities evolve over time and yes I couldnt agree more with you here on this point. The once local baker now lives in Crete I believe he as a boat for hire business, the once local butcher runs a bar in Benidorm and the once local bookie also runs a bar but its in Fuingerola.

Im left with little or no choice as I wish to stay put. This is hapenning more and more by the day, the indiginous population leaving and getting the 'hell out' and the immigrants moving in.

Were told house prices are going up all over the country, the truth is thats not correct. My house recently valued is worth just about what its worth was back in 1994. I dont benefit like some areas of the country and this is where I believe you are off track with your side of the debate.

It depends on where you live as to wether, immigration as benefited this country.

Goldgfinger i like you live in W.Yorks WF. and share an empathy in many of your views. Born in the very early sixties i've seen this area change beyond recognition, sadly for the worse in my view . Whils't not racist or bigoted i believe this goverment has let us down and i am opened minded on my vote in the next local elections including the BNP.

Yep BD, you actually know where Im coming from rather than the politicians or 'do gooders' who have no practical day to day experience of the problems facing some of our inner cities.

On a lighter note GF. if, when i hit the jackpot with KMR. i'm out of this shithole!.

We could start a Yorkshire club on here.
3 members already, of similar minded views!!
Any more takers???
Alan ;-)

have not gone into hiding or even been forcefully repatriated and some of you would seem to wish ...... have been having a quiet lunch with a good pal of mine (soul* - he lives in Canford Cliffs, so a close neighbour of yours).

will park the car and then respond ....... by and large, this has been a sensibly if quite fiercely debated thread ..... thank you all, for it could have become stupidly abusive.

To illustrate the positive side of immigration.Since 1989 in excess of 15,,000 English familys have settled in the French provinces of Bretagne, Poitou and Anjou . And why ? Because all 3 regions suffered from depopulation due to the native French moving to the cities and abroad ( Comme moi -pour l'argent )........Most simply love it as property is comparitevely cheap ,they , and more importantly , their children are safe at ALL times .lt is not uncommon to see kids strolling home from music lessons at ten at night in the dark ..CHILDREN ARE SAFE !!! ...When you ask these English if they would ever return to the UK they look at you as if you are demented .They learn the language and positively thrive ...Unlike the streets of the UK where even well heeled areas suffer at the hands of immigrants who see generousity and decency as a weakness and utterly exploit it . As for inner cities they are responsible for the majority of bestial crime such as rape and aww the mind boggles ..l suggest we give them ONE chance. But once they commit a indictable offence they are gone on the first flight to an unhabited island where they can all commit as many offences to their hearts delight,,,,,,And thats being both charitable and kind....@+ J PS No fillings or need for any treatment at dentist !! . As always ...! ........................................

ALAN - do you expect, or is it even reasonable to expect a new immigrant to assimilate in their entirety the mores of his chosen destination from Day 1? ..... almost a rhetorical question.

my own view , as stated earlier, is that open-door immigration is a recipe for disaster as at the very least there will be "indigestion" as has clearly happened in some locations ...... similarly, positive discrimination and other PC dictats are arguably as destructive as the "evils" they are meant to cure.

i like what would appear to be the Australian system of allowing immigrant entry based on a point system.

however, to make the sweepng statement that swathes to all immigrants come to UK purely to benefit from the NHS ands similar is a nonsense ..... indeed there are an awful lot of so-called indigenous residents who play (abuse) the system for all it's worth.

and so far, not even Alan has answered the question I asked in post 26 ..... "are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Chinese, Asians, WIs, Jews etc still deemed to be "aliens"? ...... if the answer is "of course not", then i would posit that the 1st generation did not "fit in" from Day 1 either, so should they never have been allowed into the country?

Personally Cynic i couldnt give a monkeys if they are 27th generation. They are ALL the same to me.ln saying that i dont include either Chinese or Jews among your list of undesireables . For the most part they are hard working industrious peoples who keep troubles " in house" without posing a threat to the community . lncidentally all Chinese are triad ; but they dont extort the indigenous population as do blackies and Pakistanis ...As much as he maybe currently maligned -.....History will prove Enoch Powell right ........................................................................

does that mean you think they are all aliens and should be forcibly repatriated..... or failing that, exterminated in gas ovens or similar?

can i phone a friend on that one or go 50/50 or even ask the audience ...hehe .................l REPEAT ..Once they commit an indictable offence within the UK they are repatriated without appeal .......................ls that so unreasonable in your eyes . Commit a crime in Pakistan and you will know about it brother ,,,

No sweeping statements from me. I use the term benefits in its broadest sense. Be it the NHS, or the very lax legal system, or the high standard of living.
I replied to your alien question also.
Alien refers not to someones ethnic origin, but to their disposition to their environment. It is, therfore, of their own making, not the environments.
Much of the 1st generation did fit in very well. The current situation is out of control and that is why they do not fit as comfortably.
As for fitting in from day one, I suggest you try to live in a muslim state. You either fit in, obey their customs and show respect to your hosts religions, or you get the first prize of a ride in a police car and a free one way air ticket to anywhere at all. They do not care where.
However if you respect their wishes they are the most generous and warm hearted bunch you could ever meet, which is why their countries are full of immigrants, but without the slightest problem and with little or no damage to their culture.
If we did the same we would be branded racist and a bunch of thugs, but it works and leads to some countries having a 90% migrant population, with none of the problems we associate with migrant communities.
Alan

i wish that were the case, and i previously thought that citizenship and asylum could be withdrawn ...... however, the case of Abu Hamza indicates that is not so ..... the law, possibly or even probably as foisted upon us by Brussels, is thus shown to be a total ass

Here- Here ! Alan ! A well thought out objective posting and executed with the elegance one associates with Alans posts. Which is NOT to say Cynics posts are written any the less elegantly but i simply strongly disagree with him l

hmm! try working in Saudi or even UAE and see what the conditions can be like.

as for fitting in from day 1, few immigrants do or are even able to ..... hence the immigrant enclaves of East London (the ethnic majority changes with time) or Liverpool, or the various Chinatowns, or Brixton etc.

one could just about argue that they do not impinge on broader society, though they must de facto disrupt the immediate locale (Dewsbury, would seem an example!) ..... however, to say that these immigrants assimilate or are assimilated from Day 1 or even quickly would be more than a stretching a point