Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Gausie. still around.

What would be you choice in thier situation?

Lie down and die? Paint a cross on your back for target practice for Israel armaments

Don't limit yourself, try and think five years ahead!

I think they are still firing rockets to get attention. They know that if they stop then there might be a ceasefire. A ceasefire will reduce the newsworthiness of Hamas. They want to appear as the opressed. That is not to say that they are or are not opressed.

Haystack, Perhaps, you are right, but I think it may be awareness of "out of sight, out of mind".

Ie. allowing Israel to ignore its United Nations, obligations once again,

Gausie, Do you have investments in Arms Manufacturers at the moment?

Powerful lobby in America.

Could make some money, if you do?

Haystack

If they wanted to use them tactically, surely they'd only fire them when a ceasefire looked imminent. Instead they're firing them constantly - there's no way IMHO that this is to attract attention. They're firing because 'this is what we do'.

MP makes Israeli troops Nazi link

Friday, 16 January 2009


A prominent Jewish MP has compared the actions of Israeli troops with Nazis who forced his family to flee Poland.

Sir Gerald Kaufman, MP for Gorton in Manchester, drew the parallel during a Commons debate on the Gaza conflict.

Some members of the Jewish community - including his fellow MPs - have questioned the comments.

Louise Ellman MP, of the Labour Friends of Israel group, said the "dreadful" war in Gaza was not comparable to German actions in World War II.

Sir Gerald, who was brought up as an orthodox Jew and Zionist, told MPs: "My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town .. a German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

"My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza."

"The present Israeli government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt from gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the Holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians."

Palestinian deaths in the Gaza Strip have passed 1,000, medical sources in Gaza say, but Israel has continued to resist international calls for a ceasefire.

The Israeli government says the action is necessary to prevent Hamas rocket attacks into southern Israel.

Labour MP Louise Ellman said: "The Nazis were about rounding up and exterminating people because of their origins.

"What we're witnessing in Gaza is a dreadful war and the Israelis are trying to stop Hamas continuing to launch rockets from Gaza, targeting and killing and murdering Israeli citizens."

But speaking to the BBC on Friday, Sir Gerald said he was standing by his comments.

"We had an IRA bomb in Manchester which destroyed much of the centre - we didn't send troops over to Belfast to murder 1,000 Catholics."

Sir Gerald said he had been a long-term supporter of Israel and has personally known many of its prime pinisters.

But he added: "I am not going to stand by and keep silent when the Israeli troops - with a dreadful government sending them there - kill large numbers of innocent people with no useful result at the end of it all."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7834487.stm

the speech... quite potent (as its from a Jew and, more importantly, for what he has gone through)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmhansrd.htm

Sir Gerald Kaufman (MP)
15.1.2009 in House of Commons

Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): I was brought up as an orthodox Jew and a Zionist. On a shelf in our kitchen, there was a tin box for the Jewish National Fund, into which we put coins to help the pioneers building a Jewish presence in Palestine.

I first went to Israel in 1961 and I have been there since more times than I can count. I had family in Israel and have friends in Israel. One of them fought in the wars of 1956, 1967 and 1973 and was wounded in two of them. The tie clip that I am wearing is made from a campaign decoration awarded to him, which he presented to me.

I have known most of the Prime Ministers of Israel, starting with the founding Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion. Golda Meir was my friend, as was Yigal Allon, Deputy Prime Minister, who, as a general, won the Negev for Israel in the 1948 war of independence.

My parents came to Britain as refugees from Poland. Most of their families were subsequently murdered by the Nazis in the holocaust. My grandmother was ill in bed when the Nazis came to her home town of Staszow. A German soldier shot her dead in her bed.

My grandmother did not die to provide cover for Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian grandmothers in Gaza. The current Israeli Government ruthlessly and cynically exploit the continuing guilt among gentiles over the slaughter of Jews in the holocaust as justification for their murder of Palestinians. The implication is that Jewish lives are precious, but the lives of Palestinians do not count.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestiniansthe total is now 1, 000. She replied instantly that

"500 of them were militants."

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

The great Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, with whom I campaigned for peace on many platforms, said:

"You make peace by talking to your enemies."

However many Palestinians the Israelis murder in Gaza, they cannot solve this existential problem by military means. Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel.

It is time for our Government to make clear to the Israeli Government that their conduct and policies are unacceptable, and to impose a total arms ban on Israel. It is time for peace, but real peace, not the solution by conquest which is the Israelis' real goal but which it is impossible for them to achieve. They are not simply war criminals; they are fools.

On Sky News a few days ago, the spokeswoman for the Israeli army, Major Leibovich, was asked about the Israeli killing of, at that time, 800 Palestiniansthe total is now 1, 000. She replied instantly that

"500 of them were militants."

That was the reply of a Nazi. I suppose that the Jews fighting for their lives in the Warsaw ghetto could have been dismissed as militants.

The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews.

Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed.

I used to have a sneaking admiration for Gerald Kaufman, a weirdie leftie. But he finally lost his marbles years ago. Now he's completely lost the plot. Tony Benn without the intellect and charm. Sad.

MM

A weird remark?

And which bit of the plot do you think he has lost?

It seems to me he can merely no longer be a Jew himself and put his name to what Israelis (Jews) are doing.

Clearly now, the evidence is overwhelming that the Israeli response is a gross overreaction. And that despite Hamas sending a rocket an hour - even if they were sending rockets that often.

I've watched the video explaining how utterly horrible Hamas are. Indeed, they are totally and repulsively cruelly pathetic.

But it is time to pressure both sides to talk.

As Kaufman says, "....Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel......"

Exec

"The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel......"

No kidding?

don't confuse Palestinians with followers of Islam across the world, any more than Israelis with those who are Jewish of faith or mere chance of birth

Mightymicrobe and Gausie,


It is easy to disparage G Kaufman

(As I have just been above with a pseudonym.)

It doesnt alter the message he was giving.

The majority of the world interprets Israels present actions in Gaza as being MURDER and probable war crimes..

Try sitting down in an armchair reviewing the recent Middle East problems from the Zionist position. Then if you have the courage to do so, review the same problems from the Palestinian position.

Also consider the present situation again, if your immediate or extended family were in the killing zone or even doing the killing.

Try it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGu14BAhWBE&feature=related

Why prevent humanitarian aid from entering Gaza?

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/37696609.html

thoroughly agree ...... why bomb UN humanitarian supply warehouses etc? ...... it makes me ashamed to be a jew

Cynic, Not ashame to be a Jew. Just ashamed of what is being done in the name of the Israel at the moment.

The government of the state has the responsibility for the present actions.

I am sorry.

yup, you are right, there being a mildly subtle difference

Just waded through the thread .
Interesting to read the various views and informative , detailed posts by THE COUNT .

First point is that Hamas should stop firing the rockets . What do they actually think they are achieving ?

An interesting though not particularly well-known fact is that after the 2nd WW , when the UK was basically bankrupt and desperate for financial help from its great ally the US , the US President held up any financial aid for UK until (Britain was in control of the Palestinian mandate ) the UK agreed to the post-war exodus of hundreds of thousands of Jews into the Palestine Mandate area .
So the US was the driving force from the very beginning behind the creation of Israel .

In the present `exchange` it was agreed that hospitals were safe-havens by both Israel and the Aid Agencies , they were subsequently attacked by Israel without warning .

The use of Phosphorus against civilians , or in an area where there are civilians , is a war crime . (why was it necessary ?)

When the Israeli Foreign Minister , Tzipi Livni , talked about the Palestinians targeting a school with their rockets , thereby justifying Israeli attacks against Palestinian targets , i almost choked on my breakfast .
If there is a Military `expert` here who can contradict , so be it , but i would be bloody amazed if these things can be accurately targeted against anything !
They fire the things in a certain direction and hope for the worst , it seems to me .

The tunnels may be used to bring armaments into Gaza , but by far their main use is to bring everyday items like food and fuel into Gaza .
Why does Israel not allow sufficient to be brought through the borders to sustain the Palestinians at a decent standard of life ???
The borders were shut as soon as Hamas were elected ...

You cannot discuss the present position without looking at the conditions that the people of Gaza are forced to endure by Israel . Every time there is an attempt to build up Palestinian infrastructure , at the first excuse Israel goes in and blasts it to rubble and so makes the Palestinian areas unsustainable .
The idea that Israel should be congratulated for providing low level work for some Palestinians whilst at the same time destroying any chance the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have of providing for themselves , is laughable .


My main point would be to turn things around and ask what Israel has done to create a sustainable peace .
Most reasonable people on both sides know that the only chance going forward is that Israel accepts agreed borders , something like those agreed in 1967 , and that a VIABLE state is created in the West Bank and Gaza for the Palestinians .

Assuming we accept that this is the only way forward , what has Israel done in that regard ???

Gaza is the minor area involved , but Israel has withdrawn to be fair , except for locking the area down like a prison area so the people live in poverty and filth (open sewers) .

The West Bank is another story .
Israel has systematically set about making a Palestinian state in the West Bank completely unviable .
The only thing you would think makes sense is that the Palestinians have a contiguous state , with borders to trade over , control of their roads and infrastructure .
What is a state if it is not that ???
Successive Israeli Governments have encouraged illegal settlements in the West Bank , knowing full well that with each house built , any real agreement became less possible . Some right wingers have openly said that by the time we are forced to an agreement the situation on the ground will be a fait accompli and completely in our favour .
You could ask why a genuine peace settlement would mean less than the forced annexation of land from the West Bank . I would think a lot of Israeli`s would happily forego the West Bank if they could live in peace .
There are Israeli only roads criss-crossing the West Bank , where you have the absurd situation where 100 Palestinians might be held up at a check point for an hour to wait for an Israeli car to pass on the Israeli road before they can cross and continue on their way !
How can that be acceptable ??

The Oslo Accords are often quoted as a possible settlement and it just shows how the whole thing has become ridiculous . Arafat was pilloried for not jumping to agree to this !

Under the agreement -

Palestine would have full control over 17% of West Bank land , where 55% of the Palestinians live .

There would be joint control over 24% of West Bank land , where 41% of Palestinians live .

Israel would have full control over 59 % of West Bank Land , where 4 % of Palestinians live .

Israel maintains overall control over Israeli settlements, roads, water, airspace, "external" security and borders for the entire territory .

Doesnt sound like much of a `State` to me ...

So has Israel really made a sustained effort to make a viable peace ?
Or have they dispossessed the Palestinians and made any future they face unsustainable ?

Make your own mind up -