Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

I used to have a sneaking admiration for Gerald Kaufman, a weirdie leftie. But he finally lost his marbles years ago. Now he's completely lost the plot. Tony Benn without the intellect and charm. Sad.

MM

A weird remark?

And which bit of the plot do you think he has lost?

It seems to me he can merely no longer be a Jew himself and put his name to what Israelis (Jews) are doing.

Clearly now, the evidence is overwhelming that the Israeli response is a gross overreaction. And that despite Hamas sending a rocket an hour - even if they were sending rockets that often.

I've watched the video explaining how utterly horrible Hamas are. Indeed, they are totally and repulsively cruelly pathetic.

But it is time to pressure both sides to talk.

As Kaufman says, "....Whenever and however the fighting ends, there will still be 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza and 2.5 million more on the west bank. They are treated like dirt by the Israelis, with hundreds of road blocks and with the ghastly denizens of the illegal Jewish settlements harassing them as well. The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel......"

Exec

"The time will come, not so long from now, when they will outnumber the Jewish population in Israel......"

No kidding?

don't confuse Palestinians with followers of Islam across the world, any more than Israelis with those who are Jewish of faith or mere chance of birth

Mightymicrobe and Gausie,


It is easy to disparage G Kaufman

(As I have just been above with a pseudonym.)

It doesnt alter the message he was giving.

The majority of the world interprets Israels present actions in Gaza as being MURDER and probable war crimes..

Try sitting down in an armchair reviewing the recent Middle East problems from the Zionist position. Then if you have the courage to do so, review the same problems from the Palestinian position.

Also consider the present situation again, if your immediate or extended family were in the killing zone or even doing the killing.

Try it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGu14BAhWBE&feature=related

Why prevent humanitarian aid from entering Gaza?

http://www.ohio.com/editorial/commentary/37696609.html

thoroughly agree ...... why bomb UN humanitarian supply warehouses etc? ...... it makes me ashamed to be a jew

Cynic, Not ashame to be a Jew. Just ashamed of what is being done in the name of the Israel at the moment.

The government of the state has the responsibility for the present actions.

I am sorry.

yup, you are right, there being a mildly subtle difference

Just waded through the thread .
Interesting to read the various views and informative , detailed posts by THE COUNT .

First point is that Hamas should stop firing the rockets . What do they actually think they are achieving ?

An interesting though not particularly well-known fact is that after the 2nd WW , when the UK was basically bankrupt and desperate for financial help from its great ally the US , the US President held up any financial aid for UK until (Britain was in control of the Palestinian mandate ) the UK agreed to the post-war exodus of hundreds of thousands of Jews into the Palestine Mandate area .
So the US was the driving force from the very beginning behind the creation of Israel .

In the present `exchange` it was agreed that hospitals were safe-havens by both Israel and the Aid Agencies , they were subsequently attacked by Israel without warning .

The use of Phosphorus against civilians , or in an area where there are civilians , is a war crime . (why was it necessary ?)

When the Israeli Foreign Minister , Tzipi Livni , talked about the Palestinians targeting a school with their rockets , thereby justifying Israeli attacks against Palestinian targets , i almost choked on my breakfast .
If there is a Military `expert` here who can contradict , so be it , but i would be bloody amazed if these things can be accurately targeted against anything !
They fire the things in a certain direction and hope for the worst , it seems to me .

The tunnels may be used to bring armaments into Gaza , but by far their main use is to bring everyday items like food and fuel into Gaza .
Why does Israel not allow sufficient to be brought through the borders to sustain the Palestinians at a decent standard of life ???
The borders were shut as soon as Hamas were elected ...

You cannot discuss the present position without looking at the conditions that the people of Gaza are forced to endure by Israel . Every time there is an attempt to build up Palestinian infrastructure , at the first excuse Israel goes in and blasts it to rubble and so makes the Palestinian areas unsustainable .
The idea that Israel should be congratulated for providing low level work for some Palestinians whilst at the same time destroying any chance the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank have of providing for themselves , is laughable .


My main point would be to turn things around and ask what Israel has done to create a sustainable peace .
Most reasonable people on both sides know that the only chance going forward is that Israel accepts agreed borders , something like those agreed in 1967 , and that a VIABLE state is created in the West Bank and Gaza for the Palestinians .

Assuming we accept that this is the only way forward , what has Israel done in that regard ???

Gaza is the minor area involved , but Israel has withdrawn to be fair , except for locking the area down like a prison area so the people live in poverty and filth (open sewers) .

The West Bank is another story .
Israel has systematically set about making a Palestinian state in the West Bank completely unviable .
The only thing you would think makes sense is that the Palestinians have a contiguous state , with borders to trade over , control of their roads and infrastructure .
What is a state if it is not that ???
Successive Israeli Governments have encouraged illegal settlements in the West Bank , knowing full well that with each house built , any real agreement became less possible . Some right wingers have openly said that by the time we are forced to an agreement the situation on the ground will be a fait accompli and completely in our favour .
You could ask why a genuine peace settlement would mean less than the forced annexation of land from the West Bank . I would think a lot of Israeli`s would happily forego the West Bank if they could live in peace .
There are Israeli only roads criss-crossing the West Bank , where you have the absurd situation where 100 Palestinians might be held up at a check point for an hour to wait for an Israeli car to pass on the Israeli road before they can cross and continue on their way !
How can that be acceptable ??

The Oslo Accords are often quoted as a possible settlement and it just shows how the whole thing has become ridiculous . Arafat was pilloried for not jumping to agree to this !

Under the agreement -

Palestine would have full control over 17% of West Bank land , where 55% of the Palestinians live .

There would be joint control over 24% of West Bank land , where 41% of Palestinians live .

Israel would have full control over 59 % of West Bank Land , where 4 % of Palestinians live .

Israel maintains overall control over Israeli settlements, roads, water, airspace, "external" security and borders for the entire territory .

Doesnt sound like much of a `State` to me ...

So has Israel really made a sustained effort to make a viable peace ?
Or have they dispossessed the Palestinians and made any future they face unsustainable ?

Make your own mind up -

Exec - those last three pics are not 'unpublished' - they date from when hamas slaughtered fatah supporters at the time that hamas came to power.

They have more recently been published on David Irving's website, purporting to be from the current troubles. You will recall David Irving makes a living writing for and addressing neo nazi organisations. He's a discredited historian, holocaust deniar and has also spent a fair amount of time behind bars.

Gausie

I do think you are right. Accordingly, I have removed them.

Exec - there's a lot of these lies about - and all presented in a very plausable manner. It's very easy to be taken in by them. I've not seen that first pic before, but I note it has the same 'pedigree', and also appears to be hosted on Irving's site. I wouldn't be surprised if it's from the same source.

Take snow's maps above - there was no palestine in 1946, the partition plan of 1947 created palestine, which was immediately followed by an all out attack on Israel from its arab neighbours, intended to wipe israel out and grab the land before israel became properly established (the so called war of independance).

Israel survived that war, and indeed won territory from its arab neighbours, and vowed to keep the territory as a buffer zone against similar future attacks - of which as we know there have been many. The Palestinians, unfortunately, have ever since been pawns, expendable by both sides in the larger arab israeli conflict. A fight by the Arabs to put right the 'Nakba', and by Israel for its very survival.

The maps also fail to show the disputed israeli borders after the 6 day war - when Israeli territory was temporarily more than doubled prior to the peace deal 15 years later with Egypt in which land was returned for peace.

Similar deals with palestinians seem not to suit their puppeteers.

Snowball.

Interesting post and I agree with the contents and sentiment.

There is one point interested me.

Re:

!) An interesting though not particularly well-known fact is that after the 2nd WW , when the UK was basically bankrupt and desperate for financial help from its great ally the US , the US President held up any financial aid for UK until (Britain was in control of the Palestinian mandate ) the UK agreed to the post-war exodus of hundreds of thousands of Jews into the Palestine Mandate area .
------------------------------------------------------

I thought Roosevelts decision not to enter WW1 earlier than it did , was because Roosevelt did not think that before Pearl Harbour he could get a declaration of war against Germany through Congress.

After Pearl Harbour December the 7th 1941 on December 11th he asked Congress to declare War with Germany.

While I think America was quite prepared not to interfere in the war and was happily bleeding Britain financially, I think Roosevelts main concern with Britain and Churchill, after that declaration was made, he wish for the break up of the British Empire.

Of course I agree that the American Administration was in favour of the State of Israel.



If you have any references regarding that posting I wonder if you would post them. as I would like to read them.

Using Moneyam E-mail would be fine.

It's interesting how the anti-Israel brigade are silent now Israel has called a cease-fire....doesn't fit in with the image, huh?

Everyone should watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8

MrCharts, I think it is time to wait. If Israel government behaves with it usual dishonesty and ongoing humanitarian abuses, this will be a temporary lull only.

Israel is losing any respect the world had for it, by its recent actions.

I think you are naive to think otherwise.

Take your tinted glasses off and look around.