Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

gf
I have worked at places that had a high degree of union membership several times from 1967. They had a terrible effect on the businesses due to the closed shop, collective bargaining and strikes and general stoppages.

I nearly forgot demarcation where one person was not allowed to do any tasks that belonged to someone else. This meant that to put up a no smoking sign, it took about six men from different trades to cut, drill, paint, fit etc the sign. If the company bought a ready made no smoking sign there would be a strike.

Then we had the print workers who added fictitious people to the payroll and split the extra wages. The unions ruined a number of good businesses and in the end worked against their members' interests.

Hays you make some good points. and points i want to discuss with you having been a Union subscriber and also being a lfe member.


I hope to reply later this weekend.

Im in the middle of a business deal.

See Chart Attack Thread.

Cheers lads and always remeber this I may not like your point of view but I always learn and respect it.

fossy - i just need to look back at the pre-thatcher days to remember how the unions all but brought this country to its knees, which of course was the aim of the likes of scargill

do you remember the port strikes against the introduction of containerisation?
what about the assorted demarcation disputes?
weren't flying militant pickets a spiffing idea too?

was management anywhere near as good as it should have been?
assuredly not, but whatever the shortcomings, at least it didn't want to wreck the country

do you remember how many of thatcher's anti-union measures labour subsequently dismantled?
perhaps you'ld like to answer that one, though it's a certainty you won't

I remember the UK being called the sick man of Europe in those days. Our cars were rubbish in terms of build quality. No one regarded the UK being capable of making anything of quality. I also remember most countries and the whole of Europe in particular being envious that we had a leader like Thatcher. There was a complete transformation of business attitude after a few years of Maggie. The number of days lost due to strikes came right down. As cynic says, there has never been any attempt to repeal the union laws. That is because they are the laws that Labour wanted, but were too scared to enact.

oh you spoilsport you!
i wanted fossy to answer the question .... i bet his fingers are still hovering over the keyboard so to do

Pure sh-te Hays.

It was the management that designed the cars not the spot welder on the line.

Sometimes YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And I stand up for this country. Only the VW Beatle was better than the best of British,
and I had one, like driving a tank. Bloody clutch pedal.

psst! management may do "fuck all" very well, but design is not something in which they would involve themselves until the very end, if then

anyway, i don't think there was much wrong with the design, but assuredly the build quality was crap
that said, it's almost certain that the management wouldn't have invested the huge money required to instal even semi-robotics, which of course transformed much ...... though the unions would have prevented its introduction in its tracks anyway

=============

i think i recollect correctly too that it was an absolute precondition of honda or toyota in setting up new factories here, that they were to be union-free

Manuel.

Part of your memory is based on figments of your own imagination. You are looking back with partial sight.

There were crazy unions members and union leaders and lousy management private company management.

I can remember the 50s 60s 70s and 80s and remember many "sane" union leaders throwing in the towel.

I can remember (Gunter, Horner, Dai Dan, Joe Gormley, Gaitskell. Bevan, Brown Wilson etc. and the infighting within the labour party.) and their pie in the sky ideological arguments and splits.

There were periods of unrealistic ideas on both sides and many walked away, while others like myself watched, wondered and sometimes were appalled by both sides.

The differences in the Unions and the Labour party were mostly aired in public while the tories did the similar behind closed doors.

I can remember the ideological arrogance of the tories and sometimes bloody ideological mindedness of unions.

But I also remember the appalling working conditions and lousy "social services" for the mass of workers and the less affluent public.

I was aware of those conditions and the background to much of unionism and the arrogance of the "privileged" classes.

I witnessed the divide, but was lucky to have been protected from the majority of the squalor, although I pushed my father into allowing me to work labouring at the pit and steel works and various other jobs (including laboratory work) during vacations. (I earned my money. (A side gain was it increased my physical strength for rugby and other sports.)

But, I also recall during the period the intransigence and reasons for such on both sides of the "fights" and also the attempts by some on both sides to try to find a common cause for benefit of all.

=========

The reduction in union membership is probably due more to the loss of the larger industries and fragmentation of the economy, than as some would believe down directly to Maggie Thatcher's legacy. (The change in economy had to happen with or without her.) Although one has to admit she did speed it up by her destruction of the economic base and replace it by City Services.

========

The argument I have with this tory government is its attempts to fragment society (divide and rule) vilifying small "defenseless" groups and uncaring application of worn out ideology in order to advantage themselves at the expense of all. (Personal greed or search of Mammon.)

so yet another yard of verbose diatribe from fossy, but guess what, he doesn't answer the question.

shall we try him again, just for a laugh .....

do you remember how many of thatcher's anti-union measures labour subsequently dismantled?

there you are in nice bold letters so you should be able to read the question

.

DYOH or get your boy friend to do it for you.

I can still remember the stench of Thatcher and it is still hanging around the old etonian cabinet and some other camp followers.

I wonder how many members of that group were, like you seem to be, stunted in childhood.

.

cynic


the build quality was crap


Remember the Friday afternoon car's ?

fossy - you're a total arsehole .... you're wonderful, or at least so you think, at preaching at (not to) others and obfuscating when necessary, but actually, you're just pathetic

with regard to my simple question, of course the world knows that your beloved labour party (even the left wing thereof) never even amended let alone dismantled any of the anti-union policies put in place by mrs t

so, try blacking her as much as you like, but it's a matter of clear fact that "your buddies" must have heaved a big sigh of relief that a major problem had been resolved for them ..... had they thought otherwise - or was it just a case of no balls? - then helter-skelter, scargill and his ilk would have been planted back on top of their dung hills

aldo - i'm not sure that monday through thursday was too great either ..... i seem to remember that jaguar in particular had a wretched reputation

It wasn't only cars. Other countries round the world didn't want our poor quality goods.

The peak in 1984 was the miners strike

I quite liked the older cars, at least you could fix em...unlike the nu improved cars that are write-offs after 5 years if anything serious goes wrong.

Good to see that Gove the tory education genius has caught on and realises that there are too many etonian old boys in the cabinet club.

------

Manuel,

P38224

Your usual standard.

I think you should return to the institution which indoctrinated you and see if they can do better second time round.

I bet they would wince if you turned up.

=====

As far as the labour party being my beloved party I never been affiliated to them or any other party and often been critical of their policies or implementation of policies.

But, I also realise that they have advanced the majority of society of the UK far more than the any CONSERVATIVE party, whose ideals are within its title and ideals of Mammon.

Maggie should have been tried for MURDER on account of the Belgrano.

She was responsible for the dissemination and mindless destruction of communities.

Only blinkered old fools like you are blind to, or find it difficult to admit the damage she did to this country, not for what she did, but the same arrogant ways as you have yourself.

She was, as you appear to be, vain.

===================

PS,

There have been some "Good" tory governments, but this is present government run by a small elitist cabal of old etonians is the lousiest and most incompetent government we have had in 50 years.

Even Gove the Czar of education admits, that there are too many old boys of the same school in the cabinet.