Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

The majority of Palestinians were not attacking Israel.
The majority of Palestinians were not terrorising Israel.
The majority of Palestinians are being abused by Israel by ignoring UN resolutions regarding their territory.

Look at the News film programs of the wholesale carnage in to Gaza, look at the number of civilians and children kill (murdered) by the Israelis..

Proportionate. I think you need to look up the meaning of the word.

Gausie, as far as disgusting you. I am happy to be doing so. If I agreed with you I would be disgusted with myself.

I will await United Nations investigation into Israels behaviour.

I have not read many posts in this thread but as far as I am concerned its very simple.

What country on earth would not respond if an adjoining territory was firing rockets indiscriminately into its territory?

There is much I don't like about Israel but it has always made it clear that it will respond to attack and it has proved time after time that it responds with huge (and arguably excessive) force.

Would Israel have invaded if Hamas had not fired the rockets? I very much doubt it.

Fred, which 'news film programs' do you glean all of your information from?

edit - are you really so short sighted to believe that, as you claim, all those children were murdered by the Israelis?

Your hatred of the Jews is now clear for all to see. As I said before, I am not jewish and I have no real interest other than balanced debate. You shock and disappoint me.

Yes, the mask has been slipping for a long time.

sivad,
Beautifully said, Sir.
The best post on the thread by far.
Is it a paste or your original work?
Richard

I'm beginning to think Fred is not even Welsh!

Raw, I have no hatred of Jews and have had numerous Jewish friends. I also pointed out before that and worked with a Jew for over 20years. We got on very well.

I think that there are many "Jews", inside and outside Israel, condemning ISRAEL's recent actions.

I object to abuse of power and the abuse of any defined group by another group.

It is a little like the "school yard" bully mentality being shown by many on different threads.

Ie. attack the messenger and forget the message.

Fred, you make a very interesting point here:
'I object to abuse of power and the abuse of any defined group by another group.'

Have you thought about the abuse of power whereby Hamas are abusing an innocent civilian population for their own ends - leading to the deaths of many.

Everything is relative. You consider Israel to be the bully and you may be partially right. However, I consider Hamas to be the bully from where the problems stem. Without the actions of Hamas, Israel may not have taken the action it did.

I have been talking to a Jewish friend of mine this morning and he confirmed what I noticed with this particular battle - the governments that matter (i.e. the local arab governments & america etc. have remained very quiet and have not been Israel bashing like the UN. I find that particularily interesting. Indeed, Egypt warned Hamas they were asking for trouble. I think some of these countries have woken up to the fact that they all have extremist muslim factions at home and are starting to worry.

Likewise, Sarkozy and Merkel are becoming increasingly concered about future developments on their respective patches.

As far as being Welsh, I feel lucky to be born a Welshman. But have also thought of myself as European.

The only day of the year I feel religious, is when I hear Cwm Rhondda being sung as Wales is beats England at Twickenham or the Millennium Stadium.

When that happens, for a few moments I feel there is a God.

I'm not sure why you would have jewish friends when you make a statement such as that in post 427.

I would've thought that most of his "friends" have 4 legs and say bah, rawdm999.

Only joking, Fred, just in case you haven't really squelched me.

:o)

us sheep would not be friends with fred

Hilary, as i said its all relative. Maybe the sheep are not his friends, he just keeps them corralled and abuses them. That makes Fred the same as Israel (or Hamas)...a bully.
PS. why would he squelch you, your posts always raise a smile.

Lamby :)

sivad .... for the record, i am jewish and many of my relatives perished in the concentration camps and even in the earlier pogroms in poland.

i read your piece and confess i find it ranting, polemical rubbish, just as most of fred's stuff is ..... no i do not condone hamas's rockets, but israel's response in all its gory detail and everything else is totally disproportionate .... yet again, the lunatics on both sides are holding sway, at the expense of simple common sense and compromise, which would almost certainly bring the peace that both the common palestinians and israelis would like.

Negotiation with Israel is specifically ruled out in Hamas' constitution.

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. (.) There is no solution to the Palestinian question except by Jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours."

Not a great starting point for Hamas' involvement in "initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences".

>>cynic

What does 'disproportionate' mean?

In the absence of any sensible response from fred, maybe I can get one from you.

You repeatedly use the word 'disproportionate', and I fail to see how it is meant.

What would a proportionate response be? Every time an indiscriminately fired rocket lands in Israel, do you propose that they lob one back into a random location in Gaza? Such a response would be sickening, criminal, but proportionate. Is that what you would propose? Would you be happier to see such a response?

Do you mean it is disproportionate because the death toll is so one sided? A dozen or so IDF deaths against maybe 500 civilians and 500 Hamas? If so, would you also describe the force used in Bosnia, Iraq or Afghanistan as disproportionate? In all three conflicts the ratios are similarly awful - Iraq, for example mourns about 300 British soldiers to 65,000 civilians. Do you call for similar condemnation on our own country for these disproportionate numbers? Do you advocate more British or Israeli deaths to even up the numbers?

I really don't understand what is meant by 'proportionate' in these situations, yet so many seem to hang their hat on the 'disproportionate' hook.

Please take this question seriously, because I really do struggle to understand what people mean by a 'proportionate' military response.

G

Raw and Hil, Your humour would charm the birds off the trees.

Cynic, I used my metaphors to simplify the problems in the Middle East.

It was deliberate and in response to the presentation of argument by some on this thread.

I wish the Palestinians hadnt resorted to using violence (rockets). However, at the end of the day, all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems.

As you can see from some of the postings on this thread, some groups show little mutual respect

Fred: So how does your statement all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems square with Hamas' Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.?