Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Fred, you make a very interesting point here:
'I object to abuse of power and the abuse of any defined group by another group.'

Have you thought about the abuse of power whereby Hamas are abusing an innocent civilian population for their own ends - leading to the deaths of many.

Everything is relative. You consider Israel to be the bully and you may be partially right. However, I consider Hamas to be the bully from where the problems stem. Without the actions of Hamas, Israel may not have taken the action it did.

I have been talking to a Jewish friend of mine this morning and he confirmed what I noticed with this particular battle - the governments that matter (i.e. the local arab governments & america etc. have remained very quiet and have not been Israel bashing like the UN. I find that particularily interesting. Indeed, Egypt warned Hamas they were asking for trouble. I think some of these countries have woken up to the fact that they all have extremist muslim factions at home and are starting to worry.

Likewise, Sarkozy and Merkel are becoming increasingly concered about future developments on their respective patches.

As far as being Welsh, I feel lucky to be born a Welshman. But have also thought of myself as European.

The only day of the year I feel religious, is when I hear Cwm Rhondda being sung as Wales is beats England at Twickenham or the Millennium Stadium.

When that happens, for a few moments I feel there is a God.

I'm not sure why you would have jewish friends when you make a statement such as that in post 427.

I would've thought that most of his "friends" have 4 legs and say bah, rawdm999.

Only joking, Fred, just in case you haven't really squelched me.

:o)

us sheep would not be friends with fred

Hilary, as i said its all relative. Maybe the sheep are not his friends, he just keeps them corralled and abuses them. That makes Fred the same as Israel (or Hamas)...a bully.
PS. why would he squelch you, your posts always raise a smile.

Lamby :)

sivad .... for the record, i am jewish and many of my relatives perished in the concentration camps and even in the earlier pogroms in poland.

i read your piece and confess i find it ranting, polemical rubbish, just as most of fred's stuff is ..... no i do not condone hamas's rockets, but israel's response in all its gory detail and everything else is totally disproportionate .... yet again, the lunatics on both sides are holding sway, at the expense of simple common sense and compromise, which would almost certainly bring the peace that both the common palestinians and israelis would like.

Negotiation with Israel is specifically ruled out in Hamas' constitution.

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. (.) There is no solution to the Palestinian question except by Jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours."

Not a great starting point for Hamas' involvement in "initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences".

>>cynic

What does 'disproportionate' mean?

In the absence of any sensible response from fred, maybe I can get one from you.

You repeatedly use the word 'disproportionate', and I fail to see how it is meant.

What would a proportionate response be? Every time an indiscriminately fired rocket lands in Israel, do you propose that they lob one back into a random location in Gaza? Such a response would be sickening, criminal, but proportionate. Is that what you would propose? Would you be happier to see such a response?

Do you mean it is disproportionate because the death toll is so one sided? A dozen or so IDF deaths against maybe 500 civilians and 500 Hamas? If so, would you also describe the force used in Bosnia, Iraq or Afghanistan as disproportionate? In all three conflicts the ratios are similarly awful - Iraq, for example mourns about 300 British soldiers to 65,000 civilians. Do you call for similar condemnation on our own country for these disproportionate numbers? Do you advocate more British or Israeli deaths to even up the numbers?

I really don't understand what is meant by 'proportionate' in these situations, yet so many seem to hang their hat on the 'disproportionate' hook.

Please take this question seriously, because I really do struggle to understand what people mean by a 'proportionate' military response.

G

Raw and Hil, Your humour would charm the birds off the trees.

Cynic, I used my metaphors to simplify the problems in the Middle East.

It was deliberate and in response to the presentation of argument by some on this thread.

I wish the Palestinians hadnt resorted to using violence (rockets). However, at the end of the day, all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems.

As you can see from some of the postings on this thread, some groups show little mutual respect

Fred: So how does your statement all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems square with Hamas' Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.?

The IRA stated that they would not lay down their arms until they had a united Ireland.

They did.

The statements made I think in practice are rhetorical.

Sensible negotiating can address these statements.

If Hamas is firing rockets and openly wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews how do you get them to sit down and negotiate honestly and with respect to Israel? I can understand how you feel some Israeli actions may have gone a step too far but surely you don't think there was no need action from Israel? You are naive and living in cloud cuckoo land if you do.

And so the killing goes on!

Fred -- the statements are not rhetorical -- they are in the Charter of Hamas and have been there, unamended and unchallenged, since 1988.

So Fred what do you get Hamas to stop firing rockets and to sit down and negotiate honestly and with respect to Israel as you put it? Most of us don't like violence but what do you do?

HAMAS-SUCH LOVELY GUYS-WHAT CHANCE DOES ISRAEL HAVE OF REACHING A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THESE THUGS.IF THEY DO THIS TO THEIR OWN BRETHREN WHAT WOULD THEY DO TO THE JEWS?

The Hamas terrorist organization has murdered dozens of Fatah members in Gaza for merely violating Hamas-imposed house arrest, according to the Arab daily, Al-Hayat. In addition to the murders, Hamas has shot people in their legs, which has caused an angry backlash in Judea and Samaria, and soured Ramallah and El-Bira residents feelings of solidarity with Gaza residents.

Gaza reports noted the death of dozens of Fatah members caused by Hamas members. A prominent Fatah leader stated that isolated random incidents of murder have occurred, but does not consider this as a case of organized persecution.

Wafa A-Najar, a former Gaza resident who lives in the Shomron town El-Bira, said that her father was killed. An additional nine family members were hurt from Hamas shooting. Among the victims were three small children and two young people in critical condition.

A-Najar stated that a squad belonging to Hamas came to her family's house in the Sheikh Radwan neighborhood in Gaza and shot at the legs of young Badran A-Najar, claiming that he was violating the house arrest which was imposed on him. He was merely sitting with his cousins in front of their home.

A prominent leader in the Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip, Ibrahim Abu A-Naja, ruled out that this is a case of persecution by some organization, which aims at Fatah. Nevertheless, he noted that "a number of isolated incidents [of murder]" had occurred, as has been reported by the Israeli media.

Abu A-Naja called for Hamas to halt any action which provides Israel the opportunity to attack them.

According to Al-Hayat, groups within the Fatah movement in Judea and Samaria estimated that more than a hundred Fatah members in Gaza had been exposed to persecution, shooting, and liquidation.

Jamal Najar, popular Arab singer stated, "I express my condolences to my cousins, some of them were killed yesterday by the gangs of the anarchic [Hamas] security forces in the Gaza Strip... The father was killed right in front of his children, because he didn't stay at home, after they placed him under house arrest, he and everyone who belongs to Fatah."

MM
The Kaiser said that Germany would never surrender. It did.

Hitler said that Germany would never surrender. It did.

American administration stated they would not leave Vietnam. They would bomb the communists into submission. They didnt.

You hope at negotiation that the moderates succeed and reasonable settlements are made for the benefit of all.

It appears to have happened in Ireland. It was accepted and signed by Ian Paisley.

Think of his wild statements over the last 30-40 years.