Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

I'm not sure why you would have jewish friends when you make a statement such as that in post 427.

I would've thought that most of his "friends" have 4 legs and say bah, rawdm999.

Only joking, Fred, just in case you haven't really squelched me.

:o)

us sheep would not be friends with fred

Hilary, as i said its all relative. Maybe the sheep are not his friends, he just keeps them corralled and abuses them. That makes Fred the same as Israel (or Hamas)...a bully.
PS. why would he squelch you, your posts always raise a smile.

Lamby :)

sivad .... for the record, i am jewish and many of my relatives perished in the concentration camps and even in the earlier pogroms in poland.

i read your piece and confess i find it ranting, polemical rubbish, just as most of fred's stuff is ..... no i do not condone hamas's rockets, but israel's response in all its gory detail and everything else is totally disproportionate .... yet again, the lunatics on both sides are holding sway, at the expense of simple common sense and compromise, which would almost certainly bring the peace that both the common palestinians and israelis would like.

Negotiation with Israel is specifically ruled out in Hamas' constitution.

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. (.) There is no solution to the Palestinian question except by Jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours."

Not a great starting point for Hamas' involvement in "initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences".

>>cynic

What does 'disproportionate' mean?

In the absence of any sensible response from fred, maybe I can get one from you.

You repeatedly use the word 'disproportionate', and I fail to see how it is meant.

What would a proportionate response be? Every time an indiscriminately fired rocket lands in Israel, do you propose that they lob one back into a random location in Gaza? Such a response would be sickening, criminal, but proportionate. Is that what you would propose? Would you be happier to see such a response?

Do you mean it is disproportionate because the death toll is so one sided? A dozen or so IDF deaths against maybe 500 civilians and 500 Hamas? If so, would you also describe the force used in Bosnia, Iraq or Afghanistan as disproportionate? In all three conflicts the ratios are similarly awful - Iraq, for example mourns about 300 British soldiers to 65,000 civilians. Do you call for similar condemnation on our own country for these disproportionate numbers? Do you advocate more British or Israeli deaths to even up the numbers?

I really don't understand what is meant by 'proportionate' in these situations, yet so many seem to hang their hat on the 'disproportionate' hook.

Please take this question seriously, because I really do struggle to understand what people mean by a 'proportionate' military response.

G

Raw and Hil, Your humour would charm the birds off the trees.

Cynic, I used my metaphors to simplify the problems in the Middle East.

It was deliberate and in response to the presentation of argument by some on this thread.

I wish the Palestinians hadnt resorted to using violence (rockets). However, at the end of the day, all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems.

As you can see from some of the postings on this thread, some groups show little mutual respect

Fred: So how does your statement all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems square with Hamas' Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.?

The IRA stated that they would not lay down their arms until they had a united Ireland.

They did.

The statements made I think in practice are rhetorical.

Sensible negotiating can address these statements.

If Hamas is firing rockets and openly wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews how do you get them to sit down and negotiate honestly and with respect to Israel? I can understand how you feel some Israeli actions may have gone a step too far but surely you don't think there was no need action from Israel? You are naive and living in cloud cuckoo land if you do.

And so the killing goes on!

Fred -- the statements are not rhetorical -- they are in the Charter of Hamas and have been there, unamended and unchallenged, since 1988.

So Fred what do you get Hamas to stop firing rockets and to sit down and negotiate honestly and with respect to Israel as you put it? Most of us don't like violence but what do you do?

HAMAS-SUCH LOVELY GUYS-WHAT CHANCE DOES ISRAEL HAVE OF REACHING A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THESE THUGS.IF THEY DO THIS TO THEIR OWN BRETHREN WHAT WOULD THEY DO TO THE JEWS?

The Hamas terrorist organization has murdered dozens of Fatah members in Gaza for merely violating Hamas-imposed house arrest, according to the Arab daily, Al-Hayat. In addition to the murders, Hamas has shot people in their legs, which has caused an angry backlash in Judea and Samaria, and soured Ramallah and El-Bira residents feelings of solidarity with Gaza residents.

Gaza reports noted the death of dozens of Fatah members caused by Hamas members. A prominent Fatah leader stated that isolated random incidents of murder have occurred, but does not consider this as a case of organized persecution.

Wafa A-Najar, a former Gaza resident who lives in the Shomron town El-Bira, said that her father was killed. An additional nine family members were hurt from Hamas shooting. Among the victims were three small children and two young people in critical condition.

A-Najar stated that a squad belonging to Hamas came to her family's house in the Sheikh Radwan neighborhood in Gaza and shot at the legs of young Badran A-Najar, claiming that he was violating the house arrest which was imposed on him. He was merely sitting with his cousins in front of their home.

A prominent leader in the Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip, Ibrahim Abu A-Naja, ruled out that this is a case of persecution by some organization, which aims at Fatah. Nevertheless, he noted that "a number of isolated incidents [of murder]" had occurred, as has been reported by the Israeli media.

Abu A-Naja called for Hamas to halt any action which provides Israel the opportunity to attack them.

According to Al-Hayat, groups within the Fatah movement in Judea and Samaria estimated that more than a hundred Fatah members in Gaza had been exposed to persecution, shooting, and liquidation.

Jamal Najar, popular Arab singer stated, "I express my condolences to my cousins, some of them were killed yesterday by the gangs of the anarchic [Hamas] security forces in the Gaza Strip... The father was killed right in front of his children, because he didn't stay at home, after they placed him under house arrest, he and everyone who belongs to Fatah."

MM
The Kaiser said that Germany would never surrender. It did.

Hitler said that Germany would never surrender. It did.

American administration stated they would not leave Vietnam. They would bomb the communists into submission. They didnt.

You hope at negotiation that the moderates succeed and reasonable settlements are made for the benefit of all.

It appears to have happened in Ireland. It was accepted and signed by Ian Paisley.

Think of his wild statements over the last 30-40 years.

Yes but look at the prolonged violence and human suffering that was needed to get to that point. Perhaps we shouldn't have had a war with Hitler but just politely asked to sit down and negotiate with him.

Fred

None of the examples you quote above are based on any sort of religious fundamentalism - and therein lies the big difference. Outside of religious zealotism, common sense often prevails.

To the zealots 'gods' word, or the words of 'the prophet' are sacrosanct and common sense has no place.

To find similar 'No surrender' examples in history you have to go back thousands of years - spanish inquisition, masada etc - or you have to pick the modern day nutcases such as Waco, Hamas and the fundamentalist jews (who fortunately are not taken seriously by the democratic majority in Israel).

Tell that to the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.

Both used religion as their totem poles.

Tell that to the Serbs, Bosnians an Croats who recently were at one another's throat.

Here again it was the manipulation of the majority by a minority for their own ends.

Fred - although in both of those examples religion was used as team colours, they were never religious wars in the same way. The protagonists were not seeking destruction of the other side because their god had told them to. It's a subtle but fundamental difference, the recognition of which is vital to understanding the Hamas charter and thought processes.