Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Negotiation with Israel is specifically ruled out in Hamas' constitution.

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. (.) There is no solution to the Palestinian question except by Jihad. All initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences are a waste of time and vain endeavours."

Not a great starting point for Hamas' involvement in "initiatives, proposals, and International Conferences".

>>cynic

What does 'disproportionate' mean?

In the absence of any sensible response from fred, maybe I can get one from you.

You repeatedly use the word 'disproportionate', and I fail to see how it is meant.

What would a proportionate response be? Every time an indiscriminately fired rocket lands in Israel, do you propose that they lob one back into a random location in Gaza? Such a response would be sickening, criminal, but proportionate. Is that what you would propose? Would you be happier to see such a response?

Do you mean it is disproportionate because the death toll is so one sided? A dozen or so IDF deaths against maybe 500 civilians and 500 Hamas? If so, would you also describe the force used in Bosnia, Iraq or Afghanistan as disproportionate? In all three conflicts the ratios are similarly awful - Iraq, for example mourns about 300 British soldiers to 65,000 civilians. Do you call for similar condemnation on our own country for these disproportionate numbers? Do you advocate more British or Israeli deaths to even up the numbers?

I really don't understand what is meant by 'proportionate' in these situations, yet so many seem to hang their hat on the 'disproportionate' hook.

Please take this question seriously, because I really do struggle to understand what people mean by a 'proportionate' military response.

G

Raw and Hil, Your humour would charm the birds off the trees.

Cynic, I used my metaphors to simplify the problems in the Middle East.

It was deliberate and in response to the presentation of argument by some on this thread.

I wish the Palestinians hadnt resorted to using violence (rockets). However, at the end of the day, all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems.

As you can see from some of the postings on this thread, some groups show little mutual respect

Fred: So how does your statement all the groups sitting down and negotiating honestly and with mutual respect will only settle the problems square with Hamas' Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.?

The IRA stated that they would not lay down their arms until they had a united Ireland.

They did.

The statements made I think in practice are rhetorical.

Sensible negotiating can address these statements.

If Hamas is firing rockets and openly wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews how do you get them to sit down and negotiate honestly and with respect to Israel? I can understand how you feel some Israeli actions may have gone a step too far but surely you don't think there was no need action from Israel? You are naive and living in cloud cuckoo land if you do.

And so the killing goes on!

Fred -- the statements are not rhetorical -- they are in the Charter of Hamas and have been there, unamended and unchallenged, since 1988.

So Fred what do you get Hamas to stop firing rockets and to sit down and negotiate honestly and with respect to Israel as you put it? Most of us don't like violence but what do you do?

HAMAS-SUCH LOVELY GUYS-WHAT CHANCE DOES ISRAEL HAVE OF REACHING A PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THESE THUGS.IF THEY DO THIS TO THEIR OWN BRETHREN WHAT WOULD THEY DO TO THE JEWS?

The Hamas terrorist organization has murdered dozens of Fatah members in Gaza for merely violating Hamas-imposed house arrest, according to the Arab daily, Al-Hayat. In addition to the murders, Hamas has shot people in their legs, which has caused an angry backlash in Judea and Samaria, and soured Ramallah and El-Bira residents feelings of solidarity with Gaza residents.

Gaza reports noted the death of dozens of Fatah members caused by Hamas members. A prominent Fatah leader stated that isolated random incidents of murder have occurred, but does not consider this as a case of organized persecution.

Wafa A-Najar, a former Gaza resident who lives in the Shomron town El-Bira, said that her father was killed. An additional nine family members were hurt from Hamas shooting. Among the victims were three small children and two young people in critical condition.

A-Najar stated that a squad belonging to Hamas came to her family's house in the Sheikh Radwan neighborhood in Gaza and shot at the legs of young Badran A-Najar, claiming that he was violating the house arrest which was imposed on him. He was merely sitting with his cousins in front of their home.

A prominent leader in the Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip, Ibrahim Abu A-Naja, ruled out that this is a case of persecution by some organization, which aims at Fatah. Nevertheless, he noted that "a number of isolated incidents [of murder]" had occurred, as has been reported by the Israeli media.

Abu A-Naja called for Hamas to halt any action which provides Israel the opportunity to attack them.

According to Al-Hayat, groups within the Fatah movement in Judea and Samaria estimated that more than a hundred Fatah members in Gaza had been exposed to persecution, shooting, and liquidation.

Jamal Najar, popular Arab singer stated, "I express my condolences to my cousins, some of them were killed yesterday by the gangs of the anarchic [Hamas] security forces in the Gaza Strip... The father was killed right in front of his children, because he didn't stay at home, after they placed him under house arrest, he and everyone who belongs to Fatah."

MM
The Kaiser said that Germany would never surrender. It did.

Hitler said that Germany would never surrender. It did.

American administration stated they would not leave Vietnam. They would bomb the communists into submission. They didnt.

You hope at negotiation that the moderates succeed and reasonable settlements are made for the benefit of all.

It appears to have happened in Ireland. It was accepted and signed by Ian Paisley.

Think of his wild statements over the last 30-40 years.

Yes but look at the prolonged violence and human suffering that was needed to get to that point. Perhaps we shouldn't have had a war with Hitler but just politely asked to sit down and negotiate with him.

Fred

None of the examples you quote above are based on any sort of religious fundamentalism - and therein lies the big difference. Outside of religious zealotism, common sense often prevails.

To the zealots 'gods' word, or the words of 'the prophet' are sacrosanct and common sense has no place.

To find similar 'No surrender' examples in history you have to go back thousands of years - spanish inquisition, masada etc - or you have to pick the modern day nutcases such as Waco, Hamas and the fundamentalist jews (who fortunately are not taken seriously by the democratic majority in Israel).

Tell that to the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland.

Both used religion as their totem poles.

Tell that to the Serbs, Bosnians an Croats who recently were at one another's throat.

Here again it was the manipulation of the majority by a minority for their own ends.

Fred - although in both of those examples religion was used as team colours, they were never religious wars in the same way. The protagonists were not seeking destruction of the other side because their god had told them to. It's a subtle but fundamental difference, the recognition of which is vital to understanding the Hamas charter and thought processes.

Gausie ....
from what i have read, which is by no means comprehensive, it seems that very few israelis have been killed at all, though that of course is not hamas's intent!

on the other hand, the israeli bombardment of gaza has caused huge casualities, though again, that is in part or even largely due to the cynical stance of hamas of putting their combatants in civilian areas.

however, again from what i have read, the israelis seem to be keeping gaza on "starvation rations" with regard to all humanitarian aid and other basic human requirements ...... certainly the bombing of the UN aid depot looks to have been intentional, and that is unforgiveable, and is also merely an easily identifiable example.

what appears in the hamas constitution is a total irrelevance ..... it can always be changed if there is a will to do so.

thus, in my very simple mind, the conflict could quite easily be resolved if the lunatic politiocians were side-lined (fat chance!), and by hamas accepting that israel has a right to its existence followed by israel vacating its "illegal" settlements on west bank and aknowledging that the palestinians have a right to live peaceably and a right to their own homeland or some such equivalent.

=================

and since we are discussing the palestinian issue .....

My good friend Dr Gary Bell is in charge of fund-raising in the Berkshire area for St John's Eye Hospital in Jerusalem ..... the hospital is of course pantheistic and pan-racial and is in desperate need of support.

If anyone is interested in assisting this very worthwhile charity (we are), then please contact me and I'll give you more detail, though the above will probably show easily enough by a quick search on the web.

Fred, yet again you trip yourself up with your own comments:

'Here again it was the manipulation of the majority by a minority for their own ends.'

What do you think Hamas are doing?

Here's a contentious issue for you to ponder since you believe the Irish problem is no more - now that the 'good times' seem to be over and the country is up s**t creek like we are, I believe we may see the rise of the dissaffected militants (many of whom never actually went away) again. We shall see.

Cynic

In the same post you describe Israel as keeping Palestinians on starvation rations "with regard to all humanitarian aid and other basic human requirements", and then go on to describe a typical example of israeli humanitarianism towards Palestinians. St Johns is just one of many Israeli medical establishments that treats Palestinians just as freely as it treats Israelis. Which is it? starved of humanitarian aid? or offered it freely?

I was hoping you'd answer the question I posed about the alleged use of 'disproportionate' force in Gaza, but you've kind of sidestepped it. And rather neatly, if you don't mind me saying so. Having carefully reconsidered this oft bandied about and sensationalist statement, do you still stand by it? or would you prefer to withdraw it?

G

Cynic you state:

however, again from what i have read, the israelis seem to be keeping gaza on "starvation rations" with regard to all humanitarian aid and other basic human requirements ...... certainly the bombing of the UN aid depot looks to have been intentional, and that is unforgiveable, and is also merely an easily identifiable example.

1.starvation rations-how do you know? When the TV cameras are in any part of Gaza apart from the damaged part everyone is going about their business in cars on bikes and horse drawn carriages.I see no malnutrition.Do you? I see open markets with fruit and veg stalls.Shops are open selling their goods.
A tiny fraction of Gaza has been damaged. The Strip is home to 1.5 million-sadly 6000 have been made homeless.

2.The UN aid depot intentionally hit-how do you know? You are spreading one side of the story-the Israelis state they were after Hamas militants who were seen at the compound.

Let us try to keep a balanced and non jaundiced view.
If we get the TV and general press out of the area,tempers will not be inflamed and the work to repair the damage will begin.

St John's israeli?????? ..... where on earth did you get that from? ..... read up your history on Knights Templar and Knights of St John

so in answer to your question, i have nothing to withdraw methinks