Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Gausie ....
from what i have read, which is by no means comprehensive, it seems that very few israelis have been killed at all, though that of course is not hamas's intent!

on the other hand, the israeli bombardment of gaza has caused huge casualities, though again, that is in part or even largely due to the cynical stance of hamas of putting their combatants in civilian areas.

however, again from what i have read, the israelis seem to be keeping gaza on "starvation rations" with regard to all humanitarian aid and other basic human requirements ...... certainly the bombing of the UN aid depot looks to have been intentional, and that is unforgiveable, and is also merely an easily identifiable example.

what appears in the hamas constitution is a total irrelevance ..... it can always be changed if there is a will to do so.

thus, in my very simple mind, the conflict could quite easily be resolved if the lunatic politiocians were side-lined (fat chance!), and by hamas accepting that israel has a right to its existence followed by israel vacating its "illegal" settlements on west bank and aknowledging that the palestinians have a right to live peaceably and a right to their own homeland or some such equivalent.

=================

and since we are discussing the palestinian issue .....

My good friend Dr Gary Bell is in charge of fund-raising in the Berkshire area for St John's Eye Hospital in Jerusalem ..... the hospital is of course pantheistic and pan-racial and is in desperate need of support.

If anyone is interested in assisting this very worthwhile charity (we are), then please contact me and I'll give you more detail, though the above will probably show easily enough by a quick search on the web.

Fred, yet again you trip yourself up with your own comments:

'Here again it was the manipulation of the majority by a minority for their own ends.'

What do you think Hamas are doing?

Here's a contentious issue for you to ponder since you believe the Irish problem is no more - now that the 'good times' seem to be over and the country is up s**t creek like we are, I believe we may see the rise of the dissaffected militants (many of whom never actually went away) again. We shall see.

Cynic

In the same post you describe Israel as keeping Palestinians on starvation rations "with regard to all humanitarian aid and other basic human requirements", and then go on to describe a typical example of israeli humanitarianism towards Palestinians. St Johns is just one of many Israeli medical establishments that treats Palestinians just as freely as it treats Israelis. Which is it? starved of humanitarian aid? or offered it freely?

I was hoping you'd answer the question I posed about the alleged use of 'disproportionate' force in Gaza, but you've kind of sidestepped it. And rather neatly, if you don't mind me saying so. Having carefully reconsidered this oft bandied about and sensationalist statement, do you still stand by it? or would you prefer to withdraw it?

G

Cynic you state:

however, again from what i have read, the israelis seem to be keeping gaza on "starvation rations" with regard to all humanitarian aid and other basic human requirements ...... certainly the bombing of the UN aid depot looks to have been intentional, and that is unforgiveable, and is also merely an easily identifiable example.

1.starvation rations-how do you know? When the TV cameras are in any part of Gaza apart from the damaged part everyone is going about their business in cars on bikes and horse drawn carriages.I see no malnutrition.Do you? I see open markets with fruit and veg stalls.Shops are open selling their goods.
A tiny fraction of Gaza has been damaged. The Strip is home to 1.5 million-sadly 6000 have been made homeless.

2.The UN aid depot intentionally hit-how do you know? You are spreading one side of the story-the Israelis state they were after Hamas militants who were seen at the compound.

Let us try to keep a balanced and non jaundiced view.
If we get the TV and general press out of the area,tempers will not be inflamed and the work to repair the damage will begin.

St John's israeli?????? ..... where on earth did you get that from? ..... read up your history on Knights Templar and Knights of St John

so in answer to your question, i have nothing to withdraw methinks

sivad .... i don't any more than you do .... i can only read and see what i see and then make my own judgment ..... at least i refrain from rabble-rousing polemics

Cynic - another hospital that do with support....

Two premature Palestinian babies treated at Barzilai Hospital
(Communicated by the Barzilai Medical Center Ashkelons spokesperson)
March 3, 2008

At the end of February, a Palestinian woman from Beit Lahiya gave birth to twins at the Barzilai Medical Centre in Ashkelon. The twins, born prematurely, weighed less than 1.5 kgs each. They were admitted to the hospitals neonatal intensive care unit (NICU), where they were treated by the medical team.

The first Hamas missiles began raining down on Ashkelon on Saturday (1 March) shortly after 5 a.m. When the Hamas shelling of Ashkelon started, the twins, a boy and girl, were still in the NICU. One of the Grad rockets fell a mere 50 meters from the hospital entrance. All the premature babies in the NICU unit, including the two Palestinian babies, were transferred to the hospitals bomb shelter for fear that the hospital itself would receive a direct missile hit.

Ashkelon Hospital, established in 1961, and renamed the Barzilai Medical Center ten years later, serves the area stretching from Ashdod in the north to Sderot in the south and Kiryat Gat in the east.


* * *

Update: Iman Shefi, mother of the twins born in Ashkelons Barzilai Hospital in the midst of the Hamas rocket attack on the south two weeks ago, was interviewed by Yediot Aharonot reporter Matan Tzuri (11 Mar 2008):

Iman Shefi, a resident of Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip, was beside herself as she watched the trail of smoke left by three Grad rockets launched near her home towards Ashkelon. I was petrified, she said. I was scared that the rockets would hit the Ashkelon hospital where my two babies are.

Several months ago, Iman learnt she was pregnant with triplets. The first baby, born at the Shifa Hospital in Gaza, died during labor. The Palestinian doctors decided to transfer Iman immediately to an Israeli hospital to give birth to the two remaining babies. The twins, Faisal, a boy, and Bian, a girl, were delivered by Caesarean section at the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon. They operation was successful, and the twins were admitted to the hospitals neonatal intensive care unit, which was moved to an air-raid shelter during the attacks.

After delivering the babies, the parents had to return home to Gaza, where they found themselves in the line of fire. The Islamic Jihad takes the malfunctioning Hamas rockets, repairs them, and launches them at Israel. They do not always reach Israel, and they fall on us, Shefi said. Last Tuesday three Kassam rockets fell close to my house. They hit small children and old people.

Only on Monday (10 March), two weeks after giving birth in the midst of the rocket attacks on the south, was Shefi able to return to Ashkelon to visit her babies. Overcome with emotion, she thanked the doctors and nurses for their devoted care to her infant twins.

She said, I dream that my children will not have to go through what I have had to, that they will grow up in an era of peace. I pray that the residents of Sderot will not be angry with us. I sympathize with their suffering and dont want them to be harmed, but we are victims as well. We have no control over the Hamas. They do as they please, in contradiction of the Quran. I do not want the Hamas in power, but I am not sure that Abu Mazen can stop the shooting.

Raw, what I wrote applies to the leaders of both factions.

Corruption of the leadership is common to all parties.

I won't give details, but you should be able to find them quite easily for yourself.

i am sure you are right .... it just happens that St John's is a charity i support, along with RNLI and Poppy Day

please note that none of these are orientated towards any faith, colour or creed!

Cynic

St Johns is a well known hospital and a center of excellence for ophthalmology in the region. You may not be aware that although it focusses on helping to reduce blindness in the poorer Palestinian areas, it's main clinical headquarters and inpatient center is based in Jerusalem, Israel. It works with other Israeli hospitals who provide labs, medical supplies and loan physicians and nurses - who are often used to train in and to staff practical outreach/outpatient clinics in Palestinian areas. Something they are all happy to do.

Funding comes from a variety of sources that include organisations such as the Michael Sobell foundation. I think I remember reading that the Japanese government also provides funding.

G

i know this particular hospital is in Jerusalem .... my post says as much!
however, i have no idea who Michael Sobell is, though I suspect he is jewish, but I am equally sure that many of the (generous) patrons are not

but now i know having looked him up on wikipedia

Cynic

We may have stepped off with the wrong foot here. The point I was trying to make is that although St Johns is based in the UK for administrative purposes, the hospital's clinical HQ is in Israel. Operationally it is to all intents and purposes an Israeli hospital.

G

in the light of your earlier post, i don't think you therefore intend it to read that St John's Hospital, albeit in Jerusalem, is run as a jewish organisation


to be more exact and for the enlightenment of all, thje following is from their web site .....

The St John Eye Hospital Group is the main provider of eye care in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. In 2008, we treated 93,657 patients - 25,579 under the age of 18. Training local Doctors and Nurses is also an essential objective of the Group. We recognise that, in training local people, we are investing in the region and helping to rebuild its fractured infrastructure. We treat patients regardless of race, religion or ability to pay.

Cynic -

I made no claim that St Johns was a Jewish organisation, nor did I imply it. I said: St Johns is just one of many Israeli medical establishments that treats Palestinians just as freely as it treats Israelis. Which is it? starved of humanitarian aid? or offered it freely? - and I stand by that statement. Your quote (in bold) from their website reinforces the message I was trying to convey. Like many such Israeli establishments it treats Palestinians just as freely as it treats Israelis.

Which brings us back to 'disproportionate force'. I still don't get why you stand by that statement. What, in your opinion, would constitute proportionate force? How is israeli force in Gaza any more or less disproportionate than British force in Iraq or Afghanistan?

So many people use the 'disproportionate force' soundbite, but I've yet to find anybody who can make it stand up to even moderate scrutiny.

G

ps - does St Johns have a 'justgiving' page? Another Israeli hospital with similar principles that I support is

laniado - a hospital that treats Israeli and Palestinian patients alike, currently raising funds to build an underground hospital that will provide protection to its staff and patients from rocket and missile attack.

don't be a naughty boy by trying to mix in UK's involvement in iraq and afghanistan .... iraq is a total mess and we were all totally gulled by tony blair into what looked like a justifiable though nasty conflict ... in the event it was of course nothing of the sort.

reverting to israel's reaction in gaza .... i did not think i had dodged the issue at all .... however, it would indeed appear that the UN depot was bombed, and even that israel used white phosphorus bombs (really nasty and totally illegal) ......

imo opinion, and i care not a lot about others with their own agendas (agendae?), israel's reaction is more akin to a flaying than even an eye for an eye, which is their pretence

Cynic

Still trying to understand your position. I think you're saying that it was disproportionate because there was 'collateral damage' to a UN depot and you believe the unproven allegations about white phosphorous bombs.

Collateral damage is an unpalatable fact of any modern warfare, and I have demonstrated that it was no worse in Gaza than the precedents set in similar modern conflicts such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia.

You also make a reference to the biblical expression 'an eye for an eye' which, as you are aware, means that the punishment should fit the crime. Yet nobody claims that the attack on Gaza was a punishment - it is recognised that it was a military incursion with the objective of ending the rocket attacks by destroying the supply lines / smuggling tunnels and reducing Hamas capability to launch.

If the allegations of the use of white phosphorous bombs prove founded - which I find highly unlikely but will keep an open mind - then I will be joining you in your condemnation.

In the meantime I'm not surprised to find that I dont see anything in your post that justifies the use of the 'disproportionate force' soundbite.

i think there is a Despatches prog tonight at 11.05 on Gaza ..... well past my bedtime .... given that Beeb is often slanted pro-arab, it will be interesting to see what comes to apparent(!) light.


Gausie ..... i could equally respond that you just don't like my answer - lol! ..... it is also worth remembering that propaganda, if you will, becomes "fact" through the public's perception ..... that might not be "fair" but it is a fact of life

Gausie, Have you looked at the News reels of Gaza.


I suppose collateral damage and proportionate.