Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

i am sure you are right .... it just happens that St John's is a charity i support, along with RNLI and Poppy Day

please note that none of these are orientated towards any faith, colour or creed!

Cynic

St Johns is a well known hospital and a center of excellence for ophthalmology in the region. You may not be aware that although it focusses on helping to reduce blindness in the poorer Palestinian areas, it's main clinical headquarters and inpatient center is based in Jerusalem, Israel. It works with other Israeli hospitals who provide labs, medical supplies and loan physicians and nurses - who are often used to train in and to staff practical outreach/outpatient clinics in Palestinian areas. Something they are all happy to do.

Funding comes from a variety of sources that include organisations such as the Michael Sobell foundation. I think I remember reading that the Japanese government also provides funding.

G

i know this particular hospital is in Jerusalem .... my post says as much!
however, i have no idea who Michael Sobell is, though I suspect he is jewish, but I am equally sure that many of the (generous) patrons are not

but now i know having looked him up on wikipedia

Cynic

We may have stepped off with the wrong foot here. The point I was trying to make is that although St Johns is based in the UK for administrative purposes, the hospital's clinical HQ is in Israel. Operationally it is to all intents and purposes an Israeli hospital.

G

in the light of your earlier post, i don't think you therefore intend it to read that St John's Hospital, albeit in Jerusalem, is run as a jewish organisation


to be more exact and for the enlightenment of all, thje following is from their web site .....

The St John Eye Hospital Group is the main provider of eye care in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. In 2008, we treated 93,657 patients - 25,579 under the age of 18. Training local Doctors and Nurses is also an essential objective of the Group. We recognise that, in training local people, we are investing in the region and helping to rebuild its fractured infrastructure. We treat patients regardless of race, religion or ability to pay.

Cynic -

I made no claim that St Johns was a Jewish organisation, nor did I imply it. I said: St Johns is just one of many Israeli medical establishments that treats Palestinians just as freely as it treats Israelis. Which is it? starved of humanitarian aid? or offered it freely? - and I stand by that statement. Your quote (in bold) from their website reinforces the message I was trying to convey. Like many such Israeli establishments it treats Palestinians just as freely as it treats Israelis.

Which brings us back to 'disproportionate force'. I still don't get why you stand by that statement. What, in your opinion, would constitute proportionate force? How is israeli force in Gaza any more or less disproportionate than British force in Iraq or Afghanistan?

So many people use the 'disproportionate force' soundbite, but I've yet to find anybody who can make it stand up to even moderate scrutiny.

G

ps - does St Johns have a 'justgiving' page? Another Israeli hospital with similar principles that I support is

laniado - a hospital that treats Israeli and Palestinian patients alike, currently raising funds to build an underground hospital that will provide protection to its staff and patients from rocket and missile attack.

don't be a naughty boy by trying to mix in UK's involvement in iraq and afghanistan .... iraq is a total mess and we were all totally gulled by tony blair into what looked like a justifiable though nasty conflict ... in the event it was of course nothing of the sort.

reverting to israel's reaction in gaza .... i did not think i had dodged the issue at all .... however, it would indeed appear that the UN depot was bombed, and even that israel used white phosphorus bombs (really nasty and totally illegal) ......

imo opinion, and i care not a lot about others with their own agendas (agendae?), israel's reaction is more akin to a flaying than even an eye for an eye, which is their pretence

Cynic

Still trying to understand your position. I think you're saying that it was disproportionate because there was 'collateral damage' to a UN depot and you believe the unproven allegations about white phosphorous bombs.

Collateral damage is an unpalatable fact of any modern warfare, and I have demonstrated that it was no worse in Gaza than the precedents set in similar modern conflicts such as Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia.

You also make a reference to the biblical expression 'an eye for an eye' which, as you are aware, means that the punishment should fit the crime. Yet nobody claims that the attack on Gaza was a punishment - it is recognised that it was a military incursion with the objective of ending the rocket attacks by destroying the supply lines / smuggling tunnels and reducing Hamas capability to launch.

If the allegations of the use of white phosphorous bombs prove founded - which I find highly unlikely but will keep an open mind - then I will be joining you in your condemnation.

In the meantime I'm not surprised to find that I dont see anything in your post that justifies the use of the 'disproportionate force' soundbite.

i think there is a Despatches prog tonight at 11.05 on Gaza ..... well past my bedtime .... given that Beeb is often slanted pro-arab, it will be interesting to see what comes to apparent(!) light.


Gausie ..... i could equally respond that you just don't like my answer - lol! ..... it is also worth remembering that propaganda, if you will, becomes "fact" through the public's perception ..... that might not be "fair" but it is a fact of life

Gausie, Have you looked at the News reels of Gaza.


I suppose collateral damage and proportionate.

Fred, and there was silly me thinking you never believed what was broadcast on the news or in the press,? as its biased etc etc
Have you changed your tune again, or is it just selective stuff you choose to believe?

Fred - you can try and answer the question I posed to cynic if you want to. I didn't ask you originally because I honestly don't think you'd be able to string a few thoughts together into a coherent argument.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/911-DVD-FINDING-THE-TRUTH-BY-ANDREW-JOHNSON-MUST-SEE_W0QQitemZ230319976434QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CDsDVDs_DVDs_DVDs_GL?hash=item230319976434&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Maestro - is it a ford transit? or a renault traffic?

Oh dear, I see this thread is attracting the fruitcakes. Now it's maestro and the 9/11 conspiracy mob. Sigh.

Gausie .... stop trying to find someone who agrees with you - lol! ..... PTH and I had dinner together last night and a quiet chuckle sort of at your expense!

I agree with Gausie and I know for a fact many others do too.
Richard

Mr C

Next you'll be proposing we take windy walks and chuckle at cynic's expense.

;-)