Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

must have been in NY then!
it's very difficult to get proper salt beef (brisket) even in london, as all these damn health freaks go on about how unhealthy animal fat is .... silverside, now the general choice, makes crap salt beef

What, the same one as the parrot?

Selfridges' is good. I know there are others, but I've got a little place nearby so it's handy. And yes, parrot, my main home IS in Wimbledon.

lob bagels are good for masterbation bet you have been there.

I'll take your word for it.....you are clearly the voice of experience.

unless selfridges have changed or offer both, then their salt beef is dry and nasty silverside ...... there was a great salt beef bar in market place, but i see that carluccio's has now taken over that site

carluccio's is awful, cod Italian with awful service
Selfridges' salt beef is usually very lean so you don't get the moisture of fat, but it's healthier and you get used to it, especially with some moisture from mustard and pickled cucumber and lemon tea.
This thread is improving

ITLOB - you hit the nail on the head about selfridges salt beef ..... sorry m8, but it's crap as any yid who knows his sarnies will tell you! .... wtfc if silverside is healthier? ..... cottage cheese is no doubt healthier than epoisses, but i know which i would rather have!

LOL !
The best salt beef was from a little Greek Cypriot place called the Sunset on Finchley High Road. Alas they retired several years ago; better than the awful Blooms, Reubens, B & K and any others I've been to.
Healthier, yeah but I'm as far from a tree hugging sandal wearing Lib Dem voting obsessive self righteous self opinionated green eco-health freak as you can imagine. I just don't like eating very fatty stuff.
Everything in moderation.
Except fighting nazi, anti-semitic filth :)

1 tablespoon vegetable oil 1 (4 pound) beef brisket ground black pepper to taste 2 onions, thickly sliced 2 cloves garlic, peeled and cut in half salt and pepper to taste

Heat the oil in a large deep skillet or pot over medium-high heat. Season the brisket generously with black pepper. Place in the pan and cook until the surface is a rich brown color, not burnt, but dark. Lift the roast and scatter the onions in the pan. Place the uncooked side of the roast down onto the onions. Repeat the browning process.
Add the garlic to the pan, and fill with enough water to almost cover the roast. Bring to a simmer. Reduce heat to low and cover with a lid or tight-fitting aluminum foil. Simmer for 4 hours, turning the roast over once halfway through. The roast should be fork tender.
Remove the brisket to a serving platter. Bring the broth in the pan to a simmer, scraping the bottom to loosen any browned bits. Cook until reduced to a thin gravy. Taste and season with salt and pepper if needed.

IOF troops raided on Thursday a number of Palestinian homes in the northern West Bank city of Nablus to get acquainted with their residents.

The raids were concentrated in the Daheya neighbourhood to the east of the city and two of the homes raided belonged to the families of Jittan and Shaaban.

One of the owners of the homes raided told PIC correspondent that IOF soldiers raided his house at 2:00 am and that among the soldiers were intelligence officers and that one of those officers told him that they did not intend to arrest anyone, but they only wanted to get acquainted.

The Palestinian home owner further said that the officer introduced himself saying that his name was Ali and that he was in charge of that area. He further informed the head of the household that he wanted to get acquainted with him and his family.

The officers questions were concentrated about members of the family, what jobs they have and their financial situation. He also asked what Palestinians thought of the reconciliation agreement between Palestinian factions. The questioning lasted about an hour.

Such raids, just to get acquainted, have been frequently taking place in the West Bank and are causing great concerns among residents who do not know the real aim behind such raids.

don't care one iota ...... shall be much more interested to read what obama said yesterday about 1967 borders and which very predictably, netanyahu rejected ..... and then, let's see if obama has the balls to start forcing the issue through the simple expedient of cutting back aid to israel or similar

If Obama thinks he can force Israel into accepting the 1967 borders he's in cloud cuckoo land. Those borders would be indefensible against insurgents or a hostile Palestine.
And yes I do think Israel must and will settle and the majority of Israelis are in favour of a Palestinian state which will inevitably come, but Obama deciding on the outcome of negotiations in advance is actually very counter-productive to any putative peace.

Obama won't do anything. The Republicans are already taking advantage of Obama's speech to drive a wedge between the Democrats and the US Jewish community by saying Obama is being unkind to Israel. Obamas is already out on a limb and he has probably gone too far politically already.

Netanyahu may well say the he won't accept 1967 borders because settlements in the West Bank are outside the proposed border, but he won't ever say what he will accept. Netanyahu is as much a prisoner of his own politics as Obamas is. His right wing, who hold the balance of power in the Israeli government don't want a peace agreement in any way similar to what is proposed. He should be happy with the 1967 borders as it means a Palestinian state on only 20% of their original land with Israel taking 80%, but somehow that is not good enough.

The right wing says that all the land west of the Jordan belongs to Israel as that is what the Bible says they had. On that basis settlements will increase until all the Palestinians are living in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan etc.

The recent incursions into Israel by Palestinians from Syria, Lebanon were Palestinians living in refugee camps there. They have been living like that for a couple for generations now. No wonder Palestinians want the right of return.

haystack - sorry, but i never bother to read your posts here as they are so partisan as to be a total waste of space

itlob - haven't read obama's speech yet, but 1967 borders will do for an opening stance and yes, i agree pretty much with what you wrote (5045) .... for sure nothing will be resolved remotely instantaneously - 5 years more and then only if we're lucky

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/obama-to-aides-netanyahu-will-never-do-what-it-takes-to-achieve-mideast-peace-1.362964

Obama to aides: Netanyahu will never do what it takes to achieve Mideast peace

Comment reported in New York Times comes amid growing tensions between Washington and Jerusalem over the U.S. President's backing of a Palestinian state within 1967 borders.

U.S. President Barack Obama does not think Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will ever make the concessions necessary to achieve a Middle East peace deal, the New York Times cited Obama aides as saying on Friday.

The comments attributed to associates of the U.S. president comes amid what is turning become into a veritable war of words between Israel and the U.S., following Obama's Mideast strategy speech on Thursday in which the American leader voiced his support for a Palestinian state based on 1967 borders.

In what seems to be a response to Netanyahu's comments, Obama aides told the New York Times that the U.S. president did not believe Netanyahu will ever be willing to make the kind of concessions that would lead to a peace deal.

Those comments, which seem to heat an already intense atmosphere between Netanyahu and Obama, comes just hours before a fateful meeting between the two leaders in the White House on Friday.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/j-street-israelis-run-ad-urging-recognition-of-a-palestinian-state-1.362886

J Street, Israelis run ad urging recognition of a Palestinian state

New York Times ad signed by Israel Prize laureates, former Knesset members, former diplomats and former defense officials, calls to establish Palestinian state on the basis of the 1967 borders.

An advertisement signed by several prominent Israelis that appeared in the New York Times yesterday urged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and U.S. President Barack Obama to work to create a Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 armistice lines.

The ad, which largely copied the text of an ad that appeared in Haaretz on Wednesday, was placed in the Times by the left-wing Jewish lobby J Street in advance of Netanyahu's arrival in the United States today.

The Israeli signatories are affiliated with a group that demonstrated in Tel Aviv a month ago in favor of recognizing a Palestinian state. They included Israel Prize laureates, former Knesset members, former diplomats and former defense officials.

The text of the New York Times ad read as follows: "We, the citizens of Israel, call on the public to support the recognition of a democratic Palestinian state as a condition for ending the conflict, and reaching agreed borders on the basis of the 1967 borders. Recognition of such a Palestinian state is vital for Israel's existence. It is the only way to guarantee the resolution of the conflict..."

The advertisement was also published in European newspapers.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=221824

Zahar: Palestinians should not settle for 1967 borders

Hamas leader says 1967 borders not enough, and parties must be prepared to discuss 1948 and partition plan lines.

Senior Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said Monday that it was clear that US President Barack Obama's platform was not so different from the one adopted by former US president George W. Bush. According to Zahar, the 1967 borders, while "sacred," were not the final borders on which the Palestinians should settle.

Speaking to Al-Emirate Al-Youm, Zahar asked "Why won't we talk about the 1948 borders? Why won't we discuss the partition plan which was internationally recognized?"

Obama reiterated his statements from last Thursday at an annual AIPAC meeting in the US that a Palestinian state should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed land swaps, which had sparked outrage from many in the pro-Israel community.

According to Zahar, Obama "wants to keep us on 22% of the area of Palestine, and talks about the possibility of swapping land, including Jerusalem...and he wants us to give Jerusalem to the occupation in return for 5% of historic Palestine, which is originally our land. This is a great trick."

all typical stuff and political posturing for domestic consumption ...... what finally emerges if we're lucky, in say 5 years time, will be something entirely different ..... in the meantime, let the nutters on on both sides kill each other

An open letter to President Obama from a Palestinian Christian

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"An open letter to President Obama,

I read your speeches to the State Department on May 19 and to AIPAC on May 22, 2011with dismay! Disingenuousness and exceptionalism form the basis of your rhetoric to appease Israel and its friends in the United States and such a stance is not conducive to understanding and peace.

Mr. Obama, you propose to maintain Israels qualitative military edge and remain committed to preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons yet you propose a demilitarized Palestine and an Israel armed with nuclear weapons.

You will stand up to groups like Hezbollah who exercise political assassination, and seek to impose their will through rockets and car bombs but yet you allow Israel to terrorize, assassinate, and kill thousands of Palestinians annually.

You are unwavering in our [United States] support of Israels security but yet do not seem to be aware that it is the Palestinians who desperately need security from Israels aggression.

You will hold the Palestinians accountable for their actions and their rhetoric but yet allow Israel free reign in terrorizing Palestinians demolishing their homes and taking more of the supposed remaining 22% of Palestine for more Jewish only settlements on Palestinian land.

I agree that strategies of repression and diversion won't work anymore. It is about time that you offer concrete and viable alternatives to Israels repression of Palestinians both in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and within Israel. Pursuing the never ending Arab-Israel peace process has always been used by Israel as additional time to expropriate more of Palestinian lands.

You once again call on Hamas to release Gilad Shalit, who has been kept from his family for five long years but you do not seem to care about the thousands of Palestinian men women, and children who are in Israeli prisons and who regularly undergo torture.

You say that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with Palestinians who do not recognize its right to exist even though Palestinians and many groups have done exactly that on many occasions. You will continue to demand that Hamas accept the basic responsibilities of peace: recognizing Israels right to exist, rejecting violence, and adhering to all existing agreements but yet you do not require the same of Israel who has violated international law, countless UN Security Council resolutions, and who does not recognize Palestine as a state.

You demand that Hamas must recognize Israels right to exist. No state in the world insists on its right to exist. Israel further wants to be recognized as a Jewish state. This is a racist notion as it automatically relegates the 22% of its Christian and Muslim citizens to second rate status. Furthermore, only states recognize each other. Hamas is a political party and not a state.

Mr. President, why do you not ask Israel to recognize Palestine?

For all those who continually affirm Israels right to exist or who insist that Palestinians must recognize Israels right to exist and even now to recognize Israels right to exist as a Jewish state, I say that what is being asked is approval of the destruction of the Palestinian homeland and the continued subjugation of an entire people. It tells all Palestinians that it was right to terrorize, massacre and dispossess them in 1947-48. The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians both within the 1949 armistice lines was deemed necessary so that a state free of Palestinians be formed. A further sequel to this wish is the continued dispossession of Palestinians both within Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

The governments of Israel and the United States must acknowledge the wrongs against the Palestinian people in forming the state of Israel. The partition plan in 1947 was against the wishes of the majority of Palestines inhabitants, and the subsequent deprivation of their inalienable right to self determination, to home, and country are wrongs that must be acknowledged. To continually affirm that Israel has a right to exist is to affirm the morally objectionable tactic of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians employed in its formation in 1948, in 1967, and continuing to this day.

You proclaim that the United States will never abandon our support for those rights that are universal and that you have respect for the rights of minorities in the Middle East; however we do not hear you ask for the human and civil rights of the Christians and Muslims in Israel and in the rest of what is left of Palestine!

You say that prosperity also requires tearing down walls that stand in the way of progress but I do not hear you demand that Israel remove the separation barrier (wall/fence) built on Palestinian lands.

Mr. President, you claim that the United States wishes to promote reform across the region, and to support transitions to democracy, yet the United States and Israel through economic measures brought about the downfall of a democratically and fairly elected government in the Palestinian territories in 2006.

Mr. Obama, in claiming that antagonism toward Israel is used as a means to redirect Middle Easterners grievances away from their governments, ignores the facts on the ground. There are real grievances such as the past ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from their country; the continued land grab to build Jewish only settlements on Palestinian land, contrary to international law; the brutal occupation of the Palestinians territories, the daily terror that Palestinian children experience particularly in Gaza; and the daily humiliation of Palestinian parents under occupation.

Mr. President, you demonize Palestinians by saying that they teach their children to hate and are terrorists but ignore the rampant hatred and racism exhibited by Israelis. On the issue of terrorism, it is Israel that kills many more Palestinians. Violence is intolerable, but both must stop the violence: Palestinians should stop resorting to stones and homemade rockets and the Israeli army should stop using its mighty and modern arsenal to bomb and shoot Palestinians including unarmed, peaceful resisters.

Mr. Obama, you think that the Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves and reach their potential, in a sovereign and contiguous state, but at the same time you characterize the Palestinians wish for a country of their own as a symbolic action and a wish to isolate and delegitimize Israel. This discordant talk betrays a lack of evenhandedness which is also demonstrated by all too frequent United States vetoes in the United Nations Security Council in defense of Israels flouting of international laws.

Mr. President, when will you hear the anguished cry of Palestinians yearning to be free from occupation of their country?

The majority of the Israeli and Palestinian people just want a normal life. They can be helped only with a firm commitment to the truth, to justice, and to reconciliation.

With the beliefs and statements in your speeches to the State Department and to AIPAC, Mr. President, how can you be an agent for peace?

Nahida Halaby Gordon

May 22, 2011



Nahida Halaby Gordon is a professor of statistics. Professor Gordon, a life-long Presbyterian and currently a church Elder, is a Palestinian-American who experienced, first hand, the 1948 Palestinian Nakba."
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