Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Ahhhhhhh but its not the rate that counts, its the TAX TAKE that balances the coffers.

Why do you think borrowing as gone up so much under the Tories..........because tax take does not equal revenue spend. (2 million Mickey Mouse jobs.)

And at a higher rate the Tories were just as they are now evading tax and the Tory governments know that.

Shame on the Tories SLEAZY SLEAZY SLEAZY.

One of the major problems with the NHS is there are far too many chiefs and not enough Indians and it will not make much difference how much money is pumped in until that is stopped.

Let's hope those truthful, honest, caring Labour MP's don't get to hear of that, save they succomb to the same.
2517

DB4 - and from where will you get the qualified doctors and nurses? .....

it takes 10 years before a starting medic student can become a qualified GP .... 5 years at medic school and then another 5 years to gain the subsequent knowledge and required qualifications

it takes 3 years to become a basic qualified RGN, and i'm sure a good number of years thereafter to move further up the scale

DB4,

But the tories are trying to stop immigration.

8-)

.

Borrowing went up when Brown & Balls screwed up the economy in the first place.

Cynic, I'm talking about all the executives within the NHS you Muppet.

But of course Cameron and Osborne have waved their magic wands and improved the situation by peeing over it.

LOL Fred. Cornered him again.

i read what YOU wrote, but even if you sacked every manager, you would not create any more doctors and nurses

also
a huge amount of time is now taken up by filling in regulatory forms and bits of paper, most of which probably have little practical value other than in avoiding litigation and showing how "efficient" the trust is

The only thing Fred ever cornered was the poor woman who married him.

Cynic, that is a totally inaccurate and stupid statement to make - "even if you sacked every manager, you would not create any more doctors and nurses". Have you got clue how much these NHS executives get paid?

you're still not listening .....
it's not just or even intrinsically a question of money ..... if you haven't got a pool of qualified people, it matters not one jot how much money you have to throw around

By Laura Donnelly, Health Editor
10:00PM GMT 27 Dec 2015
Investigation discloses doubling in number of NHS managers being paid equivalent of at least £300,000 a year, with some on as much as £620,000 annually

The number of NHS managers being paid the equivalent of more than £300,000 a year has doubled in just 12 months, it can be disclosed.

In some cases, cash-strapped health trusts are hiring temporary executives for hundreds of thousands of pounds, an investigation by The Telegraph has found.

Patients’ groups said the “exorbitant” rates could not be justified, and nursing leaders said the sums were a “kick in the teeth” for junior staff who were refused a one per cent pay rise.

NHS board reports indicate that during 2013-14, 44 “interim” executives were employed on rates of £1,000 a day — the equivalent of £228,000 a year — compared with 24 the year before.

There was an even sharper increase at the top end of the scale. In the last financial year, 22 executives were paid the equivalent of at least £300,000 a year — compared with 11 the year before and just four in 2010-11. In most cases, the payments were not made directly to the managers, but via agencies, which were able to take a share.


Meanwhile, NHS finances spiralled out of control, with trusts running up a combined deficit of £500 million, before the Government announced plans to spend an extra £2 billion next year on the NHS.

Rotherham Foundation Trust paid the equivalent of £621,000 a year for the services of Michael Morgan as chief executive.

Mr Morgan worked for Rotherham trust for 10 months, until last November.

Accounts for eight of the months show payments of £380,000 plus expenses — the equivalent of £621,000 over 12 months, a sum that would cover the salaries of 28 nurses.

NHS trusts said the payments were justified to secure “high calibre” expertise at short notice.

But the investigation found some managers stayed in post for more than a year, on rates worth far more than the Prime Minister’s £142,500 salary.

Peter Reading was paid £405,000 to be chief executive of Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals Foundation trust. He left in June, after almost two and a half years.

Several of the organisations which hired executives at high rates faced major problems.

Colchester Hospitals foundation trust, which last month told patients to keep away from A & E unless their condition was life-threatening, hired two temporary executives, Kim Hodgson and Evelyn Barker, on rates of £387,000 a year during 2013-14.

Medway foundation trust, recently named as having one of the worst A &  Es in the country according to patient surveys, paid Nigel Beverley rates of £1,740 a day until he left just before an inspection found A &  E in a “state of crisis”.

Some individuals saw their pay rates soar. In 2010, Ian Miller was the highest paid NHS manager in the England, earning £310,000 for nine months’ work for the South East Coast Strategic Health Authority in 2009-10 — which equates to £400,000 a year.

Last year he was paid £251,000 for five months’ work as director of finance at Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells — the equivalent of £602,000 a year.

In 2012, the NHS said senior managers should not be employed “off payroll” — often through an agency — except in exceptional circumstances that should never last more than six months. But the 10 highest earners were all employed off payroll, in some cases through companies they owned or controlled, and three stayed more than six months.

The payments included VAT, and there is no suggestion that any individuals were using their off-payroll status to avoid paying tax or national insurance contributions.

Others moved from trust to trust, often commanding the same high rates while keeping within the “six-month” rule.

Although trusts do not have to pay national insurance and pension contributions for managers who are off payroll, in some cases they have paid significant expenses.

Rotherham paid £7,000 a month to cover the expenses of Mr Morgan and two colleagues paid via a consultancy firm, amounting to an extra £84,000 a year between the three.

Katherine Murphy, chief executive of the Patients Association, said the spending was “unacceptable.” She added: “Investment is urgently needed on the front line.”

Dr Peter Carter, chief executive of the Royal College of Nursing said: “For sums this large to be spent instead on paying temporary managers is a kick in the teeth to nurses and a blow to patient care.

Rotherham trust said the majority of those it hired on an interim basis, including Mr Morgan, were no longer working for the organisation.

A spokesman added: “The majority of board members who were on the Board 18 months ago when the contract was awarded, are no longer working for the trust; this includes the chief executive and chairman.”

Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells said the sums paid to Maxentius specialist financial support, which provided Mr Miller’s services, “provided independent financial expertise that was essential in helping the Trust achieve £23.5 million in efficiency savings last year without impacting on patient care”.

Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals said payments for Dr Reading’s services did not include any provision for pension, holiday pay or sick pay adding that the trust was not able to recruit a permanent candidate at the time.

Colchester Hospital foundation trust, which has been in special measures since October 2013, said its exceptional circumstances required “outstanding leaders with the right skills and experience.”

Monitor, the regulator for foundation trusts, which was responsible for the appointments to Medway, said trusts with failing leadership sometimes needed to appoint senior staff on an interim basis.

The paychecks:

Michael Morgan chief executive, Rotherham Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £380,000 plus expenses to work 7 months, 3 weeks

Annual equivalent: £621,000 including expenses

Ian Miller, director of finance, Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £251,000 to work 5 months

Annual equivalent: £602,000

Peter Reading, chief executive, Peterborough and Stamford Hospitals Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £405,000 to work all year

Antony Sumara, chief executive, Royal Bolton Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £105,000 to work 12 weeks

Annual equivalent: £399,000

Nigel Beverley, chief executive, Medway Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £40,000 to work 7 weeks - trust said he was on daily rates of £1,740

Annual equivalent: £397,000

Kim Hodgson, chief executive, Colchester Hospitals Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £95,000 to work 11 weeks

Annual equivalent: £387,000

Evelyn Barker, chief operating officer, Colchester Hospitals Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £95,000 to work 11 weeks

Annual equivalent: £387,000

Jon Scott, chief operating officer, Kettering General Hospital Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £135,000 to work 4 months, 1 week

Annual equivalent: £383,000

Colin Gentile, director of finance, Dartford and Gravesham Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £185,000 to work 6 months

Annual equivalent: £370,000

Bill Boa, interim director of finance, Burton Hospitals Foundation Trust

Payment during 2013/14: £134,000 to work 6 months

Annual equivalent: £368,000

All figures taken from trusts’ annual reports and other documents. Rotherham Foundation Trust paid an additional £7K a month for expenses for Mr Morgan and two colleagues: a third share of this has been included in calculations of his yearly cost to the trust.

and your point is?????????????

i don't disagree that many or even most are probably paid far more than they should be for perhaps debatable input
However, as I wrote before, sacking every single one of them will not magically produce a larger pool of qualified nurses let alone doctors ....
yes, there may be some who might then be persuaded not to go to work overseas, but a significant and meaningful number? ..... i think not

Yeah go on cyners, kick his ass.

He as no idea about business being a former headmaster (good doer etc etc)

Weve been on the front line and know what it takes.

Top Man Management skills with each layer of management and admin knowing exactly what is THERE responsibility. The ability to delegate downwards and report upwards.

Its no good chucking money at headless chickens who may be good at there jobs but are totaly confused as to what their remit is after countless governments have poked there noses in and have continually moved the goal posts.

doctor d-in-law is sitting here and also my snooty (not really; promise!) golf club has a large pool of doctors and consultants of all ages, so for once, i have some idea what i'm talking about

the nhs (and education) problem is deep-seated and the roots go back decades .... if there was a simple and quick and effective solution, any of the previous gov'ts would have waved the magic wand

by the way, i certainly think nurses get a pretty raw deal
doctors also don't get paid quite the fortune perceived given the 10 year training period and tough conditions, especially in A&E which they have to endure during that time

Indeedy, I've witnessed some of your top man management skills on this thread, Fishfinger.

:o)

We keep getting told by 'Call Me Dave' we have more GPs more Nurses more ancillary staff, but without the captains of industry ie, the management and the management chain working in an effective way, increases in staff mean nothing.

Diminishing returns in fact.