Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

Perhaps, Leon saw and earlier posting.

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Risible PMQs performance is no win for Cameron21/01/2014


The face is red but the heart is black: Cameron’s strategy is now one of false arguments and ignoring the questions put to him.

Was anybody else dismayed to see media commentator after media commentator blithely commenting that this week’s Prime Minister’s Questions was, for example, an “easy win” for David Cameron (George Eaton, New Statesman), with Guardian political correspondent Andrew Sparrow tweeting, “Verdict from the Twitter commentariat – Unanimous for Cameron”?

It offends this writer’s sense of Britishness and fair play. If Cameron won, he did so by evasion, false argument, and perverting the facts.

Let’s go through the leaders’ exchange together, using the BBC live blog and Hansard for reference.

The first thing mentioned by Ed Miliband was the Iraq Inquiry – he called for its findings to be published as soon as possible. Then he changed subject, pointing out that the Coalition government will be the first to leave office with living standards lower than when they came into power.

David Cameron did not answer the question but went back to Mr Miliband’s comment about the inquiry instead. He said he too wants to see the Iraq Inquiry published as soon as possible – but it would have been ready years ago if the previous Labour government had set the inquiry up sooner, as the Conservatives and others had wanted.

sponsorsThis not true. Labour’s position on it is that the inquiry was set up at the appropriate time – after hostilities in Iraq had ended. In any case, we are now in the sixth year since the inquiry was established (in November 2009); most of the delays have taken place under the Coalition Government led by David Cameron. The reason currently being given for the delay, by inquiry chairman Sir John Chilcot, is that witnesses need an opportunity to respond to any criticisms of them that have been made.

This blog wishes to point out that Mr Cameron himself is also partly responsible for delays in this matter. The Guardian reported in November 2013: “The Cabinet Office is resisting requests from the Iraq inquiry… for ‘more than 130 records of conversations’ between Tony Blair, his successor, Gordon Brown, and then-US President George W Bush to be made public. In a letter to David Cameron, published on the inquiry’s website, the committee’s chairman, Sir John Chilcot, disclosed that ’25 notes from Mr Blair to President Bush’ and ‘some 200 cabinet-level discussions’ were also being withheld.

“The standoff between the inquiry and Sir Jeremy Heywood, the cabinet secretary, has been going on for five months and has meant that the [process] in which politicians and officials are warned that they will be criticised in the report, is on hold. As a result, a date for the final publication of the report has yet to be agreed, more than four years after the inquiry started. ”

That’s a delay directly attributable to David Cameron and his government. It would have been more accurate if he had said the inquiry’s report would have been ready years ago if Mr Cameron himself had not done everything he could to hinder it.

Back to today: Ed Miliband noted that Mr Cameron made no mention of the economy in his reply, and pointed out that people are £1,600 a year worse off since 2010. According to the BBC blog: “David Cameron says Labour has no apology for not launching the Iraq Inquiry earlier – before launching into a defence of the coalition’s economic record. He says Mr Miliband is wrong about everything.”

In fact he raised the alleged drop in unemployment and rise in wages recorded by the ONS (and debunked on this blog earlier today). His mention of tax reductions as a defence against the “£1,600 a year worse off” claim is ridiculous as it shows how lightly his government has taken its self-described reason for being – reducing the deficit. This is not going to happen under a government that doesn’t want to take taxes.

Cameron’s claim that there is no cost of living crisis because inflation is at 0.5 per cent is a silly ‘excluded middle’ false argument; just because the headline level of inflation is low, that does not mean people are not struggling to make ends meet – especially when they have to deal with measures brought in by Cameron’s government like the Bedroom Tax, that have nothing to do with inflation and everything to do with Tory neoliberal ideology.

Mr Miliband stood his ground: Cameron has raised taxes on ordinary families, raised VAT, cut tax credits. Wages are down; taxes are up – and a report by the Joseph Rowntree foundation has shown that half of all families where one person is in full-time work cannot make ends meet at the end of the month.

“You can work hard and play by the rules, but in Cameron’s Britain you still cannot pay the bills—that is the reality,” he said – and it’s strong stuff.

Cameron’s response was feeble. He claimed that more than 30 million people are now in work – but we know that this is partly due to the rise in the population, and most of the jobs are zero-hours, part-time or temporary, meaning that Mr Miliband is right; families are struggling to pay the bills. His repeated reference to the ONS statistics – which were discredited within minutes of having been published, is risible. Cameron was making an ‘argument by selective observation’ – what he was saying was factually accurate, but he was deliberately failing to put all the facts before us.

The claim that people in work are seeing their pay rise by four per cent seems to be an outright lie. Even the ONS could only support a rise of 1.8 per cent.

“If we had listened to [Mr Miliband], none of these things would have happened,” blustered Cameron. “If we had listened to Labour, it would be more borrowing, more spending, more debt: all the things that got us into a mess in the first place.” How does he know that? He doesn’t. It’s another false argument – an ad hominem (attacking Mr Miliband, rather than his argument), also an ‘appeal to widespread belief’, as many people still seem to believe that Labour will borrow more and create more debt (despite repeated evidence that Labour will do nothing of the sort) and that the economy is safer with the Conservatives (even though their own rampant borrowing has nearly doubled the National Debt), and a non sequitur – it doesn’t follow that, if the Tories had listened to Labour, none of the favourable outcomes he listed would have happened.

Mention of borrowing prompted Mr Miliband to point out that the Coalition Government has failed on the deficit – accurately. According to his original preductions, Chancellor George Osborne should have reduced the deficit to around £37 billion per year by now – instead it stands between £90 billion and £100 billion.

Mr Miliband’s claim that executive pay has increased by 21 per cent in the last year alone, meaning the recovery is only for a few at the top, is also accurate. Spread among the workforce as a whole and coupled with the small pay rises they have received, the average may be 1.8 per cent – but most people aren’t enjoying any sudden increase in prosperity. Are you?

Cameron’s response: “The right honourable Gentleman criticises me on the deficit—he is the man who could not even remember the deficit.” Another ad hominem, and another non sequitur. What does Mr Miliband’s lapse of memory in a speech from last year have to do with today’s statistics?

Mr Miliband’s last question was about David Cameron’s decision not to take part in televised election debates if the Green Party is excluded. If he is so confident about the economy, why is he “chickening out”?

Again, Cameron did not even answer the question. Instead he quoted Christine LaGarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, in support of his claim that the UK economy is improving. That discussion was over. Why did he have nothing to say about the TV debates? It’s a simple change of subject but, again, it’s no argument against what Mr Milband was saying.

So let’s tot up the Prime Minister’s score – did he win or lose? Let’s see: Iraq inquiry – lose; economy – lose; employment – lose; wages – lose; deficit – lose; TV debates – lose.

The moral of the story: You don’t have to win any argument if enough people are willing to say you did.

or you could bore them into submission by fillibustering
however, that risks the audience just walking away - as here

Iraq Inquiry rules re-written to prevent embarrassment – Michael Meacher MP22/01/2015

Remember yesterday’s article, in which Vox Political demonstrated that David Cameron was wrong to claim Labour had delayed the report of the Iraq Inquiry because he was guilty of the same thing? Michael Meacher agrees. He writes:

What makes it all the more scandalous is not that more time is needed to complete the report (it has been completed), but rather that those criticised in the report have been given the option of indefinitely delaying its publication as a result of being given prior access to what it says about them and then being allowed endlessly to prevaricate by haggling over every detail they don’t like. On a matter that affects the whole nation and has left an abiding imprint of deep shame, this is outrageous.

sponsorsWho, and on what authority, introduced this so-called Maxwellisation process? It has in fact no constitutional foundation except to protect political decision-makers once the tide of public opinion has turned against them.

There is to be a parliamentary debate and vote on the publication of the Chilcot report on 29th of this month. If then there were a majority in favour of publication before the election, the Chilcot committee should be expected to accept that as reflecting the will of the public, and act to abide by that decision. But this is another area where the Establishment has laid down rules for its own convenience.

The government will simply say, as it has done over 20 times on such occasions during this Parliament, that this is merely an advisory vote and it can be simply ignored.

Mr Meacher also wrote: Cameron has tried to wash his hands of it by saying that he is not responsible and the inquiry is independent [but this]doesn’t wash. He closed down the Gibson inquiry into alleged UK involvement in US rendition when it became clear that its revelations could be highly embarrassing to the UK authorities, so there is no question that he could set a time limit for the Chilcot inquiry if he really wanted to.

Get your conspiracy theories out – Leon Brittan has died22/01/2015

Did anybody else know anything about Leon Brittan having cancer before today’s announcement?
According to his family, the former Home Secretary died last night, aged 75, after a long battle with the disease.

This writer was completely unaware that Mr Brittan had been diagnosed with it, and a (quick, admittedly) search of the Internet makes no reference to it either.

The death, and the revelation that it was due to a hitherto-unmentioned disease, is almost certain to lead to conspiracy theories – especially when one considers the fact that Brittan’s reputation has been tarnished by his connection to historic allegations of sexual abuse, in which it has been suggest that he not only hid evidence of such crimes, but may have committed them himself.

Personally, this writer finds it a huge inconvenience. I have been working on a piece of fiction involving a group of assassins working for the Establishment (not the government) to eliminate anyone likely to cause embarrassment to the power-that-be; their modus operandi being to make the death look like an accident or natural causes.

Now I’m going to have to rework chapter one completely.

Afterword: Some readers may feel this article does not show proper respect to somebody who is recently deceased. While sympathy is due to Mr Brittan’s family, there are so many questions remaining to be answered about his life and conduct that they should not be avoided for the sake of social niceties. That is how it is ensured that these matters are forgotten.

Er don't tell me, he was a known associate of Jimmy S and had close contacts with the BBC....!!

The MP (forgot his name) who gave Brittan the documents would surely not have given them to him if Brittan was named therein.
2517

All we need now is for Cameron to win the election, take us into the EU fully and watch our savings shrink as they get revalued as Euro's....

at least you have a chance of voting on the issue with the tories, whereas none at all with labour

Manuel.

That is a good a chance as no chance.

Won't see another torry government for at least 20 years.

9-}

Doubt if we'l ever see one.

Young kids these days support Labour.

ON THIS DAY IN 1979
On 22 January, tens of thousands of public sector workers downed tools. Public services were halted until the middle of February, with rubbish left uncollected on the side of the roads, and the army driving ambulances.

After losing a vote of confidence at the end of March by a single vote, Callaghan called a general election for May. The Conservatives won, and Callaghan’s Labour government was brought to an end.
2517

Fred needs to get his cataracts done.
2517

fred - you're a brave man to stick your neck out to bet on anything other than a hung parliament ...... it even looks far from certain that labour will have the most seats

ohhhhhhh they will.

so you keep telling us all - incessantly

a bit like the ranting about how interest rates were 110% certain to rise before end '14, but switched to b4 GE ..... i don't think so :-)

you've also rattled on a number of other absolute non-specific certainties along the way that have also mysteriously failed to materialise

as fred says - you don’t have to win any argument if enough people are willing to say you did ....... except that in this instance, the ballot box will reveal all

We young'uns support UKIP not Labour....

I meant 16 year olds not 38 year olds, dont forget Milly wants them to have the vote.

PS. where is Hays talking of old gits.

the child abuse against gov officials we will never get the real facts .the reason they keep putting people in place knowing they will be kicked out its a rue to delaying the case . they are delaying the case till they re all dead . the government of all parties stinks of corruption trying to delay the case long enough for those quilty to be no more . the old boys rules

Yep it seems that way TANKER. Typical sleazy Tories.

You can bet your life they wont wait until Blair snuffs it.