Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

it is extraordinary how most of you here fail to differentiate between perfectly legal AVOIDANCE and EVASION (illegal) or even "aggressive" avoidance (an HMRC fave)

I think most on here know the difference between AVOIDANCE and EVASION.

What I find hard to understand, is why tax law is written in such a way as to allow avoidance.

Surely the gov/taxman has enough legal talent on call to write no get out tax rules. No?

tax rules should be simple once you have used your allowance that's it
has for companies tax on all profits simple just make it that companies can
reinvest profits has long as it is used solely for the good of the company and not
to give out massive bonuses . but we all know that the people making the tax rules
firstly look at their own ends to use legal tax avoidance to save them money
were as the people on paye can not it stinks of corruption for the rich
Osborne the liar and crook gave hedge funds the free stamp duty then they are given 47m for the election . corruption and the sfo should investigate
and no tax paid if I gave some one cash the tax man would want to know

Perhaps, they are considering the "morality" and not the legality of some tax regulations.


Also, in a vague way perhaps considering the "intentional" favouring of certain groups within society.

I can remember the tightening up of company expenses in the late 70s and 80s and the grumblings and groans of those who enjoy the advantages of those "claims" and said "expenses" allowable because they had a "company". (Sometimes "family" companies.

It wasn't change in tax regulations, but the implementation of the rules which caused the rush to trusts.

(Also, can remember HMRC inspectors almost being banned from joining squash and tennis clubs or being treated like pariahs when they did.)

Although, taxation is always used for the "wrong" things and unbearable insult to the "hard working" it depends on what you consider the "wrong things".

But much tax is paid on "inherited not personally earned income from productive work".

George Osborne's trust comes to mind and Dodgy Daves "condemnation" of unemployed school leavers.

Also, interesting condemning of the "unemployed wasters or school leavers on the dole" when they were able to go the "Bullingdon Club" and drink Coke and reward the bar man by smashing up his place of work, expecting the daddies to bail them out and pay their bills.

I suppose the Mummies and Daddies were able to pay for suitable crammers and the right pathways or openings.

To some there appears a "protected group" who are able to utilise "legal" evasion and that is what sticks in the gullets of many.

Manuel,

Cast your mind back to 70s and 80s, how many meals in your establishment were paid for as "company" expenses, even though they were obviously or not so obviously "private" affairs.

.

Another excellent explanation Fred... sadly a tin hat required for the abuse back I expect by some.

Ed: Make that two or three -):

so Greece have won they called their bluff and won .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31516416

Any "Con" Party/Government members or sympathisers involved in it?

the general ekection in may will be split to much for any party so we will have another election in 2016 . in my view it is a cert

A lot of people confuse tax avoidance and tax evasion. It can be a dangerous mistake to make!

As the former British Chancellor of the Exchequer Denis Healey said:

“The difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion is the thickness of a prison wall”.

What can’t be stressed enough is that the two terms – and the actions each entails – are definitely not the same thing.

Tax avoidance involves using whatever legal means you choose to reduce your current or future tax liabilities.

Tax evasion means doing illegal things to avoid paying taxes. It’s the Al Capone path to financial freedom.

Generally speaking, you can talk about and discuss tax avoidance on here but it would be utterly stupid to discuss and debate methods of tax evasion. The subject is 'taboo'. People do not do it.

As we listen and read some of the things our politicians have to say about tax avoidance, their utter hypocrisy beggars belief.

We know most all politicians are generally highly 'power', 'status' and 'money' motivated individuals and in the current 'war' being fought between Labour and the Conservatives, it would seem that Labour are knocking Tax Avoidance the most. They are postulating that Legal methods of avoidance are so wrong, that they must logically be classed as 'tax evasion' because they are so immoral. And yet, some of their more highly positioned members and particularly the Leader, Ed Miliband, has one of the dirtiest histories himself, of using and abusing legal avoidance measures to minimise his own (and his family's) taxation. Particularly so, when it comes to avoiding IHT on his mother's home and flipping his own and his girlfriend's properties at appropriate times to save CGT.

Tax avoidance is not immoral and neither is it wrong. In my opinion it is a sensible thing to do, and definitely so at my own level. My own measures include how my wife and I own our own home, how we have written our wills and the things we have done to protect our own family's wealth.

Most people are encouraged by the government to invest in ISAs and such like. Lots of people on here 'play the markets' using spread betting. It is entirely CGT free and you can go both long and short with your positions.

Lots of people who are interested in the 'equities market' are also interested in the 'property market' too. This latter often involves spending sums of money on property improvements and on loan interest. Such investors definitely want the tax allowances that are available, often to turn the difference of loss into a profit. They use legal methods of tax avoidance and legal tax allowances. Importantly, they don't go harping on about it in attacks on other property owners and do not take hypocritical stances with their opinions.

Hypocrisy is the worst crime in a politician in most people's view, and I do think this particular hypocrisy will cost Miliband and his party the election. What utter tosh, that he is 'holier than thou'. He is a bloody politician! He just wants to win power at all costs! To use an hypocrisy as a tool to win his political battle disqualifies him by way of naiveity. In the most simple of terms he shows he just isn't good enough to be the country's political leader.

Well said Exec! :0) Balls up a lot can't even add up his own expenses, God help us all if he gets a chance with the British economy.

a very quick answer to what one of you guys wrote earlier ......

tax law is very complicated for all sorts of reasons and gets more so as the world becomes ever more multinational

avoidance is pretty much synonymous with "using one's allowances to their full advantage"

why are their loop holes to avoid paying tax . why d they not close the loop holes
the answer is simple its the very people who use the system with the knowledge of their own rules that set the rules to suit them

and no gov will close the holes to avoid tax their donors would withdraw their backing

MrT - read above

I think what T is getting at is that for the vast majority the loop holes are immaterial (apart from ISA's), and as such it is only the really well off who benefit.
2517

Exec,

I agree with much of what you have posted and it does come down to "What I have got is mine." and "What you have got I want a bit of.".

I find the argument to disadvantage oneself or "family" by not using legal "tax avoidance" is difficult as it advantages those who don't act in a similar way.

The reason for rules and laws.

I suppose it depends on what sort of society you "wish" for and the "route" you think appropriate to move to-wards it.

==========

Disagree with you conclusions on Miliband, I think in spite of playing against those with loaded dice and an uneven table is doing reasonably well at the moment and not using up his powder.

=-=-=-=


ISA's etc. I have ISA's and have used them from their conception.

But, I was in luck and earned enough "excess" income to put cash away for tax free growth. Many low earners (honest and hard working) didn't have the "excess" cash or the "ability" to earn such, and also lacked the "knowledge" do utilise the "system".

There was a plausible balance of reasons for their introduction. None appear altruistic to me.

I know this is a bit OT but , was told by my Bank that the rate of interest on an account I had was reducing from 1% down to 0.2% . So went to Bank to close account said it was a rediculous interest rate etc . The next thing they say see our Personal Banker chappie .Had honest talk with him . he said basically the Banks have vast amounts of money stashed away , and don't need savers money. They have their required reserves and that's it . I asked about future savers rates and he said they're going nowhere for a long time . I was a bit taken aback . Any one else had this happen.

this discussion has been going round and round and round for months

if you (like fred) want to pay the taxman more than you need, then feel free, though the taxman has never recognised the word "moral"

however, those who choose to pay the taxman as little as is legally possible should not be castigated for so doing
give unto caesar etc, but why a penny more is a very fair argument

2517 correct the loop holes are their for the rich and them alone , its called look after your good friends and fcuk the workers . that is why we are ditching the 3 main parties they are not for the good of the uk