Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

Fred,

If, as you claim, you really have learned so much from those around you over the years, it might be worth noting that your views really aren't shared by the majority on this thread. I do hope you'll learn, because at the moment you're out on a limb with fruitcakes like George Galloway and Annie Lennox.

Kayak, Ruth is right here reading and watching Fred make a right tit of himself,

Think hes on a mission to fall out with everyone on this site,
he does have some funny views and priorities in life,and his double standards are quiet bizzare,
The mind boggles,

Choc. I have had various careers over the last fifty-five years. What they were is the business of those who employed me, or have known me and myself through that period. Some of those periods were of doubtful value to myself, or others.

PS. My validity of argument or as a person, is not based on my careers, gender, religion or race.

Fred
As one of your 'headless chickens'I wish to make clear the following. I do NOT laud the ongoing aggression fro either side in this conflict, Ican not understand how you can expect Israel to sit down and negotiate with Hamas and its allies while still demanding the end of the state of Israel
I want to see an end of all the war in the middle east but only when all sides (Israel/ Iran included) are prepared to negotiate without pre demands other than the rights of each other to exist in peace.

Stable, Because, when you sit down, everything becomes negotiable. At the end of the day, it is what happens. Why some of the innocent have to perish in the meanwhile, is to me crazy. ie MAD.

It has nearly always happened. Notable exceptions being Vietnam and Somali.

For me, resolution of the problems in the Middle East may come by considering the people as a whole ie. Palestinians, Israeli, and other groups as a single group and negotiating for the benefit of all.

Difficult, but feasible.


That is what happened in NI. Other factors in NI were the fatigue and ageing of the protagonists.

stable,
You are, of course, right.

Reminds of the immortal words of the Bard,

" 'Tis better, dear 'headless chickens' we, than they who be headless parrots, for we speaketh the words of our very own souls, not those mindless repetitive mouthings of the blinded headless parrots.
He who thinketh to rattle the cage of those he despises learneth at the going down of the sun the bars enclose only himself".

Inspired by Bill (we band of brothers) Shaxpir (les evenements de 1415) and the "Case Of The Missing Laptop" by Ruth The Wise (2008)

M.rCharts, Something useful. I have just copied the words into my data base of sayings. But funny thing is even down the pit I never felt enclosed. How about you?

I have no interest, other than the effects on the world econonomy, in this latest middle east problem but would like to respond to this point.

'Fred1new - 07 Jan 2009 13:16 - 31 of 62

It would also need aid to enable the Palestinians to have an economically viable, independant state. This would have to be supervised by the UN.'

When Israel pulled out of Gaza the Palestinians bought vast swathes of fully functioning, productive and profitable farmland from the Jewish farmers. I assume this was all bought by means of the 'Aid' you refer to. Within months all had fallen into disrepair. I also assume that this is not the fault of general Palestinian public - even though they are brainwashed from birth - but the so called governments ulterior motives - keep them hapless and ignorant. Aid - as i mentioned in a post on the Portugese parents thread - does absolutely no good in these situations - Billions of dollars could be thrown into Palestine but it would do no good, it will all be syphoned off into swiss bank accounts, used to buy weapons or simply wasted.

Certain countries are going through what 'the developed world' has been through over the last thousand years. Its just that back then there was no 'Aid' or 'UN'. We fought it out and got over it eventually gaining stable boundaries. I'm sure it hurt like hell at the time but i'm far too young to know. With the exceptions of small regions in Ireland and Spain. I will stand corrected if Germany goes for third time lucky.

I long for the day when the world is no longer powered by oil as then most of the world would not care one bit about the middle east.

I know what i would do if i was the Israeli government (i am not Jewish and it irritates me how they got rid of the British) - take Gaza back, purge the troublemakers to the west bank and turn that coastline into one of the most desirable holiday spots on the med. Tourism would boom (sorry cheap humour.)

Aid will have no long term benefit. The people will still starve and suffer but over more and more generations.

Regarding the media - if you are a foreign entity and want perfect propoganda look no further than the British media to provide it for you.

Don't shout - just my thoughts.

Rawhide, Interesting points. If I get up in the morning and I am sober I will reply.


I promise not to shout.

Have a quick look at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4581334.stm

Another thing, Fred. You seem to have this boundless faith in the United Nations. The last useful thing I can recall the United Nations doing was in 1950, when the United Nations, led by the United States, went to war against North Korea when the North Korean Army crossed the 38th parallel and invaded South Korea.

A brief examination of the fates of the peoples on both sides of the 38th parallel now is a pretty adequate illustration of the benefits of of a capitalist democracy versus a totalitarian communist regime.

Well, Fred, with regard to your post 59 - why the sudden coyness?
Whilst I don't doubt your sentiment, the content is evasive.

I take it in your next post that you were in fact also referring to your validity as a person?
Is this a form of psychosis?

About 2,500 turned up at tonight's rally outside the Israeli embassy supporting Israel's right to self defence via the incursions into Gaza

Especially for Dil:-

Its Fred :-)

Eyes in the back of your head

Rawhide, From memory, if you go back 2005 to when Hamas was elected as the government in Gaza, the reasons given that Gazo was left in chaos. Also the majority of the population thought their Fatah representatives were corrupt and had similar opinion of the administration. This was also the opinion of informed external observers. (Israel and The West did not accept the democratic process and result.)
--------------------------------------------------------
As far as United Nations aid is concerned I partially agree. I think that it has to be controlled and get to the places it was intended to, rather than siphon off by government officials into private accounts. (But look how America siphoned the aid given to Iraq back into the coffers of large American companies. (Friends of the government. Middle East corruption is nothing compared with Americas.)

The aid should be supervised by United Nations and directed to:-

1) The provision of education of all (male and female) between the age of 5years and 18years, followed with equal opportunity of free University education for both sexes.
2) The provision of a health service
3) The provision of water and sanitation
4) The provision of various other utilities
5) The provision of a decent infrastructure.
6) Etc.

The aid has to be properly administered and accounted for. Also provided only with mutual consent from both sides.

They also need free access to their country via the Mediterranean for trading purposes.
The above will eventually happen in spite of the ostrich mentality of some people.
=============================================

Yes, the United Nations needs reform to take in the changes happening the world in general. Unfortunately, at the moment, America, Britain, France, Russia and China would block any sensible steps to reform and to increase its authority and power.

UNESCO with all its faults does carried out valuable work.

As far as propaganda is concerned of the BBC is concerned, check on the Israeli propaganda productions and the Zionist lobby in America.

It will be interesting to see the line Obama will take, because of the way he raised a large amount of funding for his election he may have broken free of the Zionist lobby. Whether his approach to the Middle East and World Politics will be different from previous administrations remains to be seen.


I find it interesting how the level of argument on this board, is at the level of personal abuse. What I expected and amusing.

There are plenty in this country that wouldn't mind a free University education Fred.

"I find it interesting how the level of argument on this board, is at the level of personal abuse. What I expected and amusing."

I'm not sure who's personally abused you, Fred. I thought that everybody here had been quite restrained and was just saying it as they saw it.

I'm sure the temptation has probably been there though.

:o)

I wouldn't mind the free 'Etc' :)

Dil, My wife and I benefited to a certain degree from a free university education and since then paid that money back to society in tax. (Happy to do so.)

As mentioned before, I went to what could be considered a working class university with the majority of students from working and middle class backgrounds. At that time the majority of students were from Grammar schools with a few from Comprehensive schools. The majority of these students would not have been able to have afford that education without those grants.

I think the scrapping of university grants was a folly, as have some of the other moves in education.

Many of those who attended university at the same time as I did have paid less tax subsequently than we did, but by their occupations have often given the non-cash equivalent to society. This has led to the overall improvement in society.