Will this increase or decrease the likelihood of terrorist actions in America, Europe and the rest of the world?

If you were a member of a family murdered in this conflict, would you be seeking revenge?

Should Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert, be tried for war crimes if or when this conflict comes to an end?

What will the price of oil be in 4 weeks time?

President-elect Barack Obama expressed concern about the crisis, but stressed he would not intervene in "delicate negotiations" by the Bush administration.

My feeling is that this is the great hope that is being tested.

Why single out only one side, Fred, when Hamas leaders are the same animal?
Will the conflict end in our lifetime - I doubt it.

And now that Madoff's been rousted for doing the unthinkable to his own, and to the tune of an awful lot more than most will admit to, how long will it be before the funding runs out?

You're absolutely right, Fred. I'm sure there are countless families of 911 victims, together with the families of the victims of the Taj Hotel massacre in Bombay who probably feel the same way. And that's not to mention the families of Nazi Holocaust victims from WWII.

Fine, Fred.

But, in your opening post, you clearly picked on the Jews? You specifically named Tzipi Livni and Ehud Olmert.

Yet "Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[18] the European Union,[19][20][21][22] Israel,[23] Japan,[24] and the United States,[25] and is banned in Jordan.[26] Australia[27] and the United Kingdom[28] list only the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. The United States and the European Union have both implemented restrictive measures against Hamas on an international level.[19][29]" -Wikipedia

Fred, none of us likes to see what is happening to the innocents in Gaza, but moral blackmail won't get us anwhere either. Hamas is a terrorist organization sheltering and operating among innocent civilians in a land which they control. What would you have the Israelis do? Sit there and take it?

MM, You are partially correct. However. I was thinking of the named, but I was also thinking of Blair and Bush and Osama bin Laden amongst others along similar lines.
I wondered from whom I would get a response and what it would be. Also, I wondered a little, if there would be a different response on the traders thread to the investors thread.
I think what disturbs me about all these leaders how they are carefree about the deaths of others and prepared to pursue an aggressive war against minor or defenceless forces for their own political advantage or legacies.

I dont see and easy solution, but think the handshake of Golda Meir and Sadat may be an indicator to the path I would have taken. Both swallowed some pride for the sake of their children. For the near future, I think this pathway has been blocked by the recent Israeli stupidity.

Putting a terrorist label on Hamas is less than useless. How will you think about it, if Russia provides armaments both defensive and aggressive weapons. One could have a nice clean war with bullets fired from 5miles up in the sky. The IRA were treated as terrorists and placed in a political wilderness until John Major had the sense to talk and recognise their grievances.

I think that Israel needs to withdraw and also be made to pay for the reconstruction of the damage they have done in Gaza.

Ps I have heard that Russia has provided Iran with "rocket defence shields". Interested to know, what else they will provide?

I think America is forgetting, that at the end, economies win wars not armaments.

I'm sorry Fred but I believe the Palestinians have brought this upon themselves.

If someone were firing at you wouldn't you want to try and stop them ?

Nothing criminal in that imo.

So now we're guinea pigs, Fred?

And you think that peace talks have been scuppered because of 'Israeli stupidity'?
What other outcome could be envisaged from the outset of the current bloodbath?

And frankly, I'm disgusted at your notion that the IRA were 'treated as terrorists and placed in a political wilderness' until their grievances were recognised.
They will go to their graves as terrorists - and no platitudes can ever change that.

Fred, I'm with Choccie (always!). The IRA were "treated as terrorists" because of their prediliction for blowing innocent people up in the middle of British cities. Warrington? Omagh? Hyde Park? Birmingham? Their grievances, phooey. It appals me to this day that the murderer Martin McGuinness, for all his folksy Irish charm, is a member of a UK legislature. The IRA commander on Bloody Sunday.

I'm beginning to form the impression, Fred, that you are one of these unreconstructed apologists for terrorist "freedom fighters" that I simply will never agree with.

I had a neighbour whose kid was a bloody nuisance for 2-3 years. I asked his parents to stop him firing his catapult at my glass house. I warned him time and time again.

I was fed up. The police didn't want to know,

Finally, I went round one night, set fire to their house and as they came running out broke their legs of the kids and one parent with my baseball bat.

Put a stop to that.

Only problem is that I find difficulty in sleeping at night because they threatened to kill me.


Its OK because my kids are now grown up and they also have catapults and baseball bats.

Chocolat, I suggest you read the Irish history of the Catholics rights over the last 50 years. This may bring a different opinion of the craziness in NI.

I had a neighbour whose kid was a bloody nuisance for 2-3 years. I asked his parents to stop him firing his catapult at my glass house. I warned him time and time again.

I was fed up. The police didn't want to know,

Finally, I went round one night, set fire to their house and as they came running out broke their legs of the kids and one parent with my baseball bat.

Put a stop to that.

Only problem is that I find difficulty in sleeping at night because they threatened to kill me.


Its OK because my kids are now grown up and they also have catapults and baseball bats.

Chocolat, I suggest you read the Irish history of the Catholics rights over the last 50 years. This may bring a different opinion of the craziness in NI.

Fred, I'm sorry to be so direct, but your invented analogy is nothing short of pathetic. And I'm thoroughly familiar with the history of Ireland and its relationship with Britain with all the sadness it entails. But none of this justified the acts of the Provisional IRA in the late 20th century.

All their leaders wanted was political power -- and now they've got it. And what a price they paid with other people's lives to get it.

Oops, Fred, I nearly overlooked your last unintentional truism.

"I think America is forgetting, that at the end, economies win wars not armaments."

Which is precisely how Ronald Reagan won the Cold War. He out-spent the Soviets in strategic armaments. The whole Star Wars thing was the most magnificent scam in history. The USSR folded its hand when Gorbachev saw the game was unwinnable and negotiated rapprochement with the West with Margaret Thatcher. Gorbachev is one of my heroes, a courageous man who saw the future, with all its uncertainties, and embraced it.

MM, I am not advocating violence as a method for change. But go back to the employment "rules", voting "rules" an the political bias against the Catholics in the 50s and 60s in NI, one can understand the IRA rising to "power" due to this frustation.

The analogy is representative of the disproportionate force that Israel is using. In my mind similar to what was used in the South of France by the Nazies at during the end of WW2. ie. disproportionate force and used indiscriminately against the civilian population.

It will not solve the problems. Improving the economy might.

Your opinion of Regan and Thatcher is expected. Surprised a little that you have a similar opinion of Gorbachev. But again this was again a missed chance by the "West" and Thatcher and Regan, gloated and saw it as an oportunity to plunder the "USSR".

I think Economically we are seeing Russia's revenge with gas. I await more unification of the Middle Eastern countries and the turning of the oil screws.

Fred,

Russia's a busted flush and, imo, whilst nobody can see it just now as everybody's got him down as sfb, in the years to come I think that Dubbya might well be looked back upon as having done the best possible thing for the Middle East (if not the rest of the world) by invading Iraq.

MM, Have a look at this site.

During my wanderings I visited this village. It summates the futility of war.

http://www.oradour.info/images/catalog1.htm

The Germans were offering the same reasons as Israel is giving today.

" O will they never learn"

Didn't Israel withdraw from Gaza a few years back, after promises that the rocket attacks would stop? Looks like they got done over.

Gausie, Check how many United Nations' Mandates have be ignored by Israel over the last 40years. America and Britain have colluded with these actions.

The mass destruction of a country's infrastructure and "mass murder" of children, and civilians is unjustifiable.

If you have a loaded gun and pull the trigger you are responsible for the result of that
action.

Edited after SKinny.

Fred do you mean concurred?

Fred,

Please don't be offended, but I've got to ask. Do you post as maestro on the freeview by any chance?

:o)

Fred

Please tell me what you think Israel should do to protect itself against any country or organization that has in its 'manifesto' the destruction of the state of Israel?

I would encourage anyone interested in this to have a read at the very thorough Wikipedia entry on 'Gaza'

I also found a very clear article on the current situation, which was written by Martin Kramer at http://sandbox.blog-city.com/israels_gaza_strategy.htm

And of course, since Hamas are in power somewhat illegally, then any negotiations with them also have an undesired effect of legitimising Hamas.

Importantly, one of Israel's prime objectives is to de-legitimise Hamas and get rid of them. Kramer's article does a good job of explaining as to why this is the case.