Thought Id start this one going because its rather dead on this board at the moment and I suppose all my usual muckers are either at the Stella tennis event watching Dim Tim (lose again) or at Henly Regatta eating cucumber sandwiches (they wish,...NOT).

Anyway please feel free to just talk to yourself blast away and let it go on any company or subject you wish. Just wish Id thought of this one before.

cheers GF.

fred - you're beginning to sound as if you admit that DC may indeed get some decent concessions out of eu
if he does, you'll pour scorn on any success ..... and of course pour scorn should he not succeed

nurse, nurse ... please be on standby with the hypodermic

Perhaps, the con party to hire Blatter as a helper for Lynton Crosby when it comes to the referendum. Birds of a feather come home together at No 10.

So it looks like the elderly, unlike murderers, rapists etc etc do not have 'A Right To A Life'
H your post 60542 in your dreams re being helpful. Of course they don't want us to leave they will miss our contributions.
2517

Manuel,

You are being as daft as usual.

=-=-=-=-=-

All dynamic organisation need "careful" examination of its workings, laws, rules and regulations etc. regularly, and the consequences of those, which produce unwanted, or previously unforeseen consequences should be modified.

Normal for a civilised society, but those changes have to be subservient to needs and of the whole, not some little man doing it for personal, or small minded party political reasons.

The changes Cameron will get and then bluster about, could be gained at less cost by normal negotiation within the EU. He is wasting tax payers money on a referrendum for party politic reasons.

Some modification of immigration responsibilities are probably reasonable, as well as in other areas.

Integration of Political policies, Defence and Fiscal and Financial and Taxation rules and other areas, will occur within the EU, with or without the UK.

I think Cameron is a chancer with respect for his own needs and desires but not those of the total he is supposed to represent.

Another point is, whatever he seems to get after his attempts to bully, bluster or bribe from the “said negotiations” and then sell to the UK public, the changes will never be enough for the loony right wing of the tory party. Many of whom want out of the EU, for reasons, which I suspect, are not the ones they are giving.

-=-=-=-=-

Also, many of the EU countries have elections coming up and they have their own versions of the loony right and UKIP and the last thing they need is opening up of basic treaty revision.

Cameron, might be shooting his own foot off

i happen to disagree

being frightfully nice to those in strasbourg gets you absolutely nowhere ..... standing up and fighting hard and with a potential weapon in hand is far more likely to succeed ..... as MrsT showed, it isn't meant to be a popularity contest
sure as hell DC won't get anything like the published aims, but some decent moves and concessions will be well worth the fight

labour would have done absolutely nothing to get better terms and just rolled over as history shows was the inclination
do you not find it now strange that labour are suddenly supporting the idea of a referendum, having vehemently opposed this only a few weeks ago?

btw, i think several of the other eu countries will be delighted at DC's efforts and will be more than happy to hang on to his coattails to get changes which so many think are most definitely required .... it will very much suit their own agendas of staying in power and, incidentally of course, will reflect at least to some degree the wishes of a high proportion of their populace

Even Merkel is under pressure at home for treaty changes. She operated in a coalition with pressures from all sides. There has been much muttering of late from the population and coalition partners about immigration. Germany takes the bulk, by a log way, of asylum seekers and immigrants.

Manuel,

You are entitled to disagree.

I often think of you as someone who wants to be another bruiser.
Personally, I have never seen the effects of coercion leading to long-term mutual gain for both parties.

Generally, it seems to lead to resentment, ill feelings and lack of long-term co-operation.

The UK is no longer a driving force in Europe that it thinks it is, or maybe once though it was. It is being gradually emasculate and sidelined by its own follies.
Labour "accepting" of the “referendum” is "interesting", but may be accepting the inevitable, or as I suspect more devious.

Over the recent years, Labour seem to be in favour of remaining in the EU and have always been more internationalist than the piratical reactionary tories.
I have a guess that the arguments over “in” or “out” by the Tory “Neo-cons” and “Wets” may be quite heated and revealing to the public, which appeals to the labour party who themselves are in disarray.

But your last sentence reminds me of the eldest child in a family who is reluctant to relinquish the first-born automatically assumed “authority” and “superiority” when relating to sibling and others.

It seems similar to “elitism” with the “expectancy” to lead and rule.

I often think of you as someone who wants to be another bruiser.
Personally, I have never seen the effects of coercion leading to long-term mutual gain for both parties.

but you think it perfectly acceptable for the militant unions to take this stance
not very consistent are you

==============

DC has always stated that he is in favour of staying within eu, though assuredly not in its present format and becoming worse (ever more federal)
however, he accepted a little while back that, with good reason, a significant proportion of the populace will need some persuasion

labour stuck its head in the sand on this issue and also on immigration (as directed by the militant unions), and paid the penalty

however, i am pretty sure that the final count will show in favour of staying in

Once again Labour have shown themselves to be hypocrites. They were fundamentally opposed to a referendum and would only have one if there were adverse changes to the rules. They have now said that they support a vote. The reason they now give is that they can see that the public want a vote. Never mind sticking to your beliefs, just change your views to fit in with public opinion. Labour are worried about being on the wrong side of history again.

.

I think every person has a right to withdraw his labour when he/she "feels" or "knows" he/she is being abused.

Perhaps, the seen "abusers" will take into consideration the consequences of their approaches.

I don't think that one has the right to "physically" or "verbally" to "knowingly" abuse another party.

Also, I think if one is "abused" physically it is acceptable to respond like ways in order to stop the "assault".

If you look back you will see my view of "militancy" and the period.

Also, I related that my own father who was a colliery manager only had one strike in a 28 year period and that was one half day on a Christmas Eve.

He informed the employees of what change were being made and why and then circumvented problems before they arose, i.e., he foresaw, noted and informed and worked with the union representatives.

He thought that was what management was.

==-=-===-=

Dodgy Dave's changes are likely to be just lipstick presented as a success.

(He doesn't wish to leave the EU, but the referendum might come back to bite his arse.)


Immigration, there has been a tory government in all but name for 5 years during which period they have achieved nothing. If they hadn't scrapped the "ID card" proposal, the major problems of "false" claims may have been addressed.

Also, the cost of addressing free movement across borders in the EU will probably be down to the UK. The land borders in the rest of Europe are not usually monitored due to costs.

Airports and even sea ports a slightly different situation due to dangers of terrorism.

=====

Wonder why they scrapped it. I hope it wasn't down to collating "bank accounts" and
transfer of money.
===

Ps.

I didn't see the directive of the Unions.

Did you see the directives of the tory party donors of what they wanted for their money (bribes) or the help they needed with their tax returns?


Interesting, to watch Cameron being hoisted by his bribes and false promises and forthcoming U-bend u-turns.

I think every person has a right to withdraw his labour

i don't at all disagree, with the emphasis being on the person, and not the collective coercion to strike or else
i know from first hand that when a strike was threatened at BA, any personnel who did not agree with this action came under massive union pressure to stay in line
i can't remember the exact wording of the new rules, but they seemed very fair to me and are assuredly designed to remove (coercive) power from the activists and militants

i also think it is absolutely right that a union member should now have to actively opt IN to a specific political party donation

Look at this from the Guardian in Feb this year.

56% of tube drivers think it's acceptable to drive a tube train drunk

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/10/tube-drivers-vote-strike-colleague-sacking

Tube drivers vote to strike over sacking of colleague

London Underground says it dismissed driver for failing two random breath alcohol tests

London Underground drivers have voted to strike over the sacking of a colleague.

Members of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union backed industrial action by 299 votes to 221. The union’s general secretary, Mick Cash, said: “Our members have voted for industrial action and the union will now consult extensively with our representatives before deciding on our next moves in this dispute.

“The union remains available for talks, at Acas if necessary, and as we have already stated we are ready to abide by any decision made at an employment tribunal and cannot understand London Underground’s reluctance to agree to that course of action.”

LU had urged union members to vote against strikes, insisting it had dismissed the Northern Line driver for failing two random breath alcohol tests. It said it operated a zero-tolerance policy on drugs and alcohol.

Less than a quarter of those eligible to vote for strike action did so.

Well it appears that many tory MPs are P out of their P out of their minds in HP bars every night the club is opened.

It is said of Churchill that the best decisions were made when he was inebriated and asleep and someone else made the decisions for him.

Also, Maggie on about 1/2 a bottle of Scotch a day for lot of her time.

=-===-=-

I hope the driver's remark was off the cuff "send up".

But the hazy one does seem to spend a lot of his life in the dust bins, perhaps he feels at home there.

And you Fred The Red basically, not to put too fine a point on it are just full of shit, shit and more shit, bit like Manchester :0)

PS.

Only 36.9% of the UK voters voted for the tories. 63.1% voted against them.

That is about 25% of the electoral roll.

Suggest you consider the success appropriately.

A very Scottish coup as SNP lose Highland Council


http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/a-very-scottish-coup-as-snp-lose-highland-council-1-3787861

Especially for Manuel and Exec.

Some good news

C of E crisis as it loses 1.7m followers. Former Archbishop Lord Carey warns: 'Church is a generation from extinction'

Lord Carey called for urgent action to reverse slump in followers
Britons identifying themselves as C of E or Anglican dropped to 17 per cent
Current Archbishop Justin Welby has also said decline needs tackling
Government statistician says figures are 'very serious' for Church

The Church of England has suffered a dramatic slump in its followers, shocking new figures show.

Between 2012 and 2014, the proportion of Britons identifying themselves as C of E or Anglican dropped from 21 per cent to 17 per cent – a fall of about 1.7 million people.

Former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey warned last night that unless urgent action was taken, the Church was just ‘one generation away from extinction’.

The number of Anglicans in Britain has dropped from about 10.3 million to 8.6 million, and will raise fresh fears over the future of the Church of England, which has been in decline since the 1960s.

Lord Carey, who has warned before about dwindling congregations, said: ‘These figures are a call to urgent mission. I have no doubt at all that the Archbishops, together with the whole leadership of the Church of England, are doing all they can to reverse this trend.’

The current Archbishop, Justin Welby, has also called for the decline to be tackled and is introducing measures to streamline the Church and strengthen its leadership.

Peter Brierley, a former Government statistician who advises religious groups, said: ‘It is very serious for the Church of England and they know it.

‘The problem is that it has a lot of elderly members, but when they die off there are not enough younger people to replace them.’