Thought I'd start a new thread as this is going to be a major talking point this year...have not made up my mind yet...(unlike bucksfizz)....but thinking of voting for an exit as Europe is not doing Britain any good at all it seems....

On his performance so far can anyone believe what is written in said leaflet and come months or years later people will regret staying in because of lies .

Sounds like a typical neo-con government!

Just to remind 'the lefties' on the realities of life:

The protestors in Whitehall last weekend demanding the Prime Minister’s resignation for the offence of being well-off should remember the salutary tale of the 10 drinkers who decide to settle their £100 weekly bar bill in roughly the same way we pay our taxes.

The first four men (the poorest) pay nothing; the fifth pays £1; the sixth £3; the seventh £7; the eighth £12; the ninth £18; and the 10th man, the richest, pays £59.

When the barman gives them a £20 discount for being good customers, they decide to pay the new £80 bill in the same progressive way. So the fifth man, like the first four, now pays nothing, a 100 per cent saving; the sixth man pays £2 instead of £3 (a 33 per cent saving); and on up to the 10th man, who pays £49 instead of £59 (a 17 per cent saving).

No one loses. But when they compare their savings, the sixth man complains that he is only getting £1 while the first four point out that they receive nothing. The richest man, by contrast, gets £10.

“The system exploits the poor,” they object. “The wealthy get all the breaks!” So the nine men surround the 10th and beat him up.

The next week he doesn’t show up at the bar and when they come to pay, they don’t have enough money between them to cover even half the bill.

Questionable comparison.

The poorest pay nothing in cash, but what do they provide for society by their endeavours at the "level" they are able to.

610 ..... as follows

for obvious reasons, the booklet is tilted towards staying in

however, even when reading the very first page, the so-called facts really just aren't or at least the implied facts do not stand up to scrutiny - eg we will keep our own border controls; true but we can't stop any eu citizens, and thanks to germany's loony open-door policy, there will be 00,000s "extras" acquiring this right within a very years

a stronger economy
perhaps, and it's certainly true that, if we leave, it will take years and years and years to get a new structure put in place ...... to my mind, that just highlights the intractability and lack of will of the eu legislature

securing our borders
part of this is absolute bollocks (imo) .....
the claim is that if we leave, there will be less cooperation between the intelligence
services
that would be totally against the interests of anyone, though some european agencies are far from secure, and i am certain much is already withheld from them

uk has special status within eu
that really is pretty tenuous

==================

my conclusion is that the real issues are ......
1) no one has any idea of the knock-on effects if uk leaves eu ...... they could indeed be pretty scary, though i don't know in excatly what way .... it just will be so!

2) if uk leaves eu, the short term effects on the economy are likely to be ugly, but for how long, no one knows

3) if uk leaves eu, we ought to regain better control of who does or not come into the country ........ however, if we want meaningful trade with eu, then freedom of movement for eu citizens will be difficult to resist ..... however, uk may be able to restrict what benefits and similar can be claimed

4) if uk leaves eu, then assuredly uk parliament will be able to decide what eu directives are or are not acceptable, which of course is not so as it stands

5) if uk leaves eu, then assuredly uk will no longer have to pay the "gravytrain" of MEPs and their hangers-on ..... but this is more of an emotional issue than significant in relation to the whole

6) if uk leaves eu, then i assume uk will no longer have to subsidise croatia, serbia and similar, nor contribute to the questionable subsidies paid to italian olive growers, french farmers etc

7) if uk leaves eu, then uk should be able to implement and enforce a proper fisheries policy that will allow north sea fish stocks to recover from their current badly threatened levels

8) if uk leaves eu, then uk courts should regain much of their independence instead of the permanent threat of having judgements overruled in strasbourg or brussels

Right thanks for that , it's up to the leave side to highlight all these issues really. Haven't received mine yet .

Item 2 c, what exactly will change?

Item 3.

Does (for example) America allow free movement? And if not, why not??

Manuel.

You are into canoes.

How much of the UK trade goes through the tunnel and across Europe to various destinies in Europe and other areas, in comparison to "sea" and "plane"?

Borders are always porous.

Will all "visitors" to the "UK" need visas and close scrutiny or inspection at "borders" and what will be the cost to tourism and Universities?

=-=-=-=

One of the advantages of travelling around EU was not having to arrange "visas" and their cost and being held up at borders.

Also, I would not like to return to having when in another EU country having to turn up at various "police" stations to show "status" and passports every move.

(Sometimes, checks could be done at hotels.)

I can remember crossing borders and seeing the various police and security forces walking down train platforms with their weapons cocked.

(That was going into and out of countries. To have safe borders are we going to have the same type of security. I hope not.)

The results may be the introduction of tariffs.

Who are going to pay those tariffs?

The only thing I know about America is that they spend a lot of money trying to stop Mexicans crossing the border . whether that's free movement I don't know .

620 - i would guess that eu will immediately impose all sorts of tariffs and restrictions on uk produce
there may also be a considerable impact on uk banking and financial services which produce much of uk's gdp

621 - you can't compare uk's relatively tiny economy with that of usa
usa and its economy carry sufficient clout to allow it to get away with restrictive practices

622 - i would doubt very much if uk citizens will require visas to travel in eu, any more than they already do to places like dubai and many other countries

Hey Freda why worry about a few hundred people murdered every now and again , just so you can saunter around Europe .All your references go back many decades don't they , shows you live in the past WAKE UP .

My sauntering days are over.

The references are still in action in many states other than EU.

Those living in the EU and EU nationals don't have the problem within the EU.

I would stop any intending murderer moving from any village to another in the UK.

Put a border up immediately.

620 They sell more to us...shooting themselves in the pocket

The EU is unlikely to impose tariffs on UK as we would do the same. The balance of trade is heavier in goods coming from the EU to here. BMW, VW, AUDI, MERC, BOSCH and many German companies would scream and shout if tariffs were introduced apart from companies in France (Citroen, Peugot, Renault) and Italy (Zanussi, Fiat, Landis, Alfa, Ferrari).

i gave my opinion ...... you are not obliged to agree

Is this a repeat of the so called Millenium Bug where the fear of that 00 would be the end of well everything , and on it's arrival well nothing .

cynic Thats not true..From Iceland all the way down to eastern Turkey the EU DOES NOT impose tariffs...What you are saying is that the EU will be so p***ed off with the UK it'l be the only country that gets hit with tariffs....

What about ALL the trade the EU does with the UK, would we in response to their unfair treatment do the same????....HIGHLY UNLIKELY!

At first if there is a LEAVE vote, then yes there will at first be a reaction, but in my opinion it will settle down after a couple of weeks...But don't forget, when there was talk of the UK joining the euro zone and what these Europhiles said at that time....The financial markets would collapse, no one would trade with us......

IT WAS ALL LIES AND SCAREMONGERING....AS IT IS NOW FROM THE EUROPHILES...

The EU is for the big multi nationals and those on the gravytrain not for the ordinary
man in the street ..

in this instance, you may wish "nothing" but assuredly that will not be the case if "out" carries the day

somewhat to my surprise, Beloved is adamant that she will vote "out" and it is a racing certainty that i shall too

however, "in" remains strong favourite to carry the day

At PMQs a few moments ago, Cameron said that he will remain as PM if the referendum vote is out.